Amazon boss Jeff Bezos defends company's workplace culture • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon boss Jeff Bezos defends company's workplace culture

#61

Post by toyg » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 2:14 PM UTC

austenallred wrote: post #36

toyg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You never see posts about people at Google or Facebook saying they're abused and overworked. Even with Microsoft, you read about political infighting and stack-ranking being stupid, but not downright emotional abuse or on-call madness. With Amazon, it's quite a regular occurrence. Where there is smoke...

Google: http://www.businessinsider.com/reasons-working-at-google-suc... http://techcrunch.com/2009/01/18/why-google-employees-quit/ http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/fea... Facebook: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-22-worst-things-about-wor... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2410298/Forget-free-... Microsoft: http://www.businessinsider.com/why-microsoft-is-so-messed-up... http://www.…

Did you actually read those complaints? Some are about compensation (you don't even have to reach 1000 employees to get those...), some about work/life balance, some about not being as good as the company would allow you to be (!), but i can't see any about emotional abuse, people crying at their desk or having to pay for a parking lot. It's a different scale.

Even on glassdoor, Amazon averages 3.4 vs Google 4.4 vs Facebook 4.4. That 0.6 difference is what you mention: some people will inevitably be unhappy. But that other 1.0, that's not normal for a tech company.

Re: Amazon boss Jeff Bezos defends company's workplace culture

#62

Post by jaawn » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 2:16 PM UTC

Mr. Bezos' response strikes me as the all-too-familiar case of upper management not keeping tabs on middle and lower management. If he is truly sincere that he does not recognize the version of Amazon depicted in the article, and does not agree with that type of management, then he (like many high-level managers) needs to take an active approach in weeding out abusive managers at all levels (especially lower level managers).

I work at a large enterprise (5,000+ employees) and this is a huge problem for us. Upper management has a vision for the organization, but it gets lost on its way down the chain. A simple phrase is the main culprit: "... is up to manager discretion."

For example, upper management: "We are creating a flexible part-time teleworking agreement whereby employees can work from home up to 2 days per week. Usage of this arrangement is up to manager discretion." Lower management: "I know about the new teleworking option, but our department is not participating because how can anyone get work done at home?"

If upper management does not actively monitor and intervene with stifling lower-level managers, they can definitely create an organization that, in practice, differs greatly from the one they imagine, the one they wanted to create.

Re: Amazon boss Jeff Bezos defends company's workplace culture

#63

Post by t0mbstone » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 2:18 PM UTC

“Even if it’s rare or isolated, our tolerance for any such lack of empathy needs to be zero,” Mr. Bezos said in an email circulated to all the retailer’s employees.

My note: Zero tolerance policies without recourse for correction are a perfect example of the Amazon inhumanity. Straight from the mouth of the leader. There's your culture problem right there.

Re: Amazon boss Jeff Bezos defends company's workplace culture

#64

Post by jaawn » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 2:26 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #50

jaawn wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the assumption that long hours and little vacation maximize profits should be taken for granted, especially in a longer-term time frame. I've seen quite a lot of information in the past few years that shows that (especially for developers) long hours have diminishing returns on productivity, and may actually hurt productivity.

It may hurt productivity, but the employer gets the benefit of keeping the employee on a leash by not giving them time to look for other opportunities , plus in some businesses you can just keep grinding employees to the bone and sift until you have the most workaholic ones, such as in finance. I won't claim to know what will happen to Amazon or other companies if they keep trying to squeeze every cent out of every e…

I think this is something that varies a lot based on the nature of the work. Creative software development/design/engineering is more taxing in a way that precludes almost anyone from being productive at an 80+ hour/week level, especially if it is the "normal" workload.

Not to diminish finance people, by the way. I'm sure they work hard, but in a different way.

Re: Amazon boss Jeff Bezos defends company's workplace culture

#65

Post by nocarrier » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 2:32 PM UTC

eternalban wrote: post #29

austenallred wrote: post #23

"BREAKING: Hugely successful big co has ex employees not fully satisfied, willing to criticize it. It also has current employees who appreciate it. Will keep you posted."

To top it off, written by a company that has clear conflict of interest in context of eCommerce (NYTimes is an eCommerce player) and publishing (Washington Post) with Mr. Bezos. I am not in any way associated with the wunderkind of Seattle and/or his company. Just noting an interesting fact.

How is the New York Times an ecommerce player? I've never heard anyone suggest that before and now I'm quite curious.

Re: Amazon boss Jeff Bezos defends company's workplace culture

#66

Post by chinathrow » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 2:33 PM UTC

mason240 wrote: post #48

chinathrow wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Treating employees in the fullfilment centers like shit is another side of the story, right? Do you need sources?

I'm addressing your "anyone defending themselves (and thus anyone who has revived criticism) is automatically wrong" argument. You're defending yourself right now, so by that argument it "says a lot to me."

Touchée ;)

Re: Amazon boss Jeff Bezos defends company's workplace culture

#67

Post by exelius » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 2:47 PM UTC

sudhirj wrote: post #6

There's a bit of a divide that no one seems to be touching on - most of the issues talked about in the NYT article seem to be from non technical folks, while engineering tends to be a little happier for precisely the reasons Bezos mentions. Amazon and most other companies have separate staff, culture and levels of morale for engineering and non engineering divisions. Can't really compare them directly.

This is exactly it.

I know numerous people who work in marketing or operations at Amazon, and their experiences more closely mirror the NYT article. Much of the pressure is self-imposed: Amazon hires type-A overachievers, then stack-ranks them. The pressure to succeed is immense, and as happens with any forced stack rank system, people try to tear each other down.

Amazon hires legions of MBA graduates every year, and most of them will have left by the time the next class comes in. Jeff Bezos seems to have modeled Amazon in the style of his former employer, McKinsey & Co., and it shows. The expectations at Amazon are similar to the expectations at McKinsey -- except that being fired from McKinsey after 2 years is almost considered a rite of passage in the executive world. Until Amazon develops a similar reputation (and becomes a lot pickier about who it hires) they will continue to have this perception problem.

It's certainly effective, but Amazon is not a nice place to work.

Re: Amazon boss Jeff Bezos defends company's workplace culture

#68

Post by swillis16 » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 2:56 PM UTC

virmundi wrote: post #44

lotsofpulp wrote: post #21

If Bezos really wanted to put his money where his mouth is, he would implement a minimum mandatory vacation period and significant maternity/paternity leave at the least, if not a max # of hours per week. Of course, that would not maximize profits at amazon or most other companies so that's not really what will happen.

A client had an interesting system along this line. Every employee was required to leave for one week to make sure that day to day operations continued without interruption in their absence. As result, everyone took at least one week of vacation. Often they would take two at this time.

Was the client in the finance field? I've heard of something similar be used to ensure that employees weren't doing anything 'fishy'.

Re: Amazon boss Jeff Bezos defends company's workplace culture

#69

Post by notacoward » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 3:19 PM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #17

"No one tells me to work nights. No one makes me answer emails at night. No one texts me to ask me why emails aren't answered." Well, if you're willingly working nights and weekends (which we know you do, as you penned the response on a Saturday), then of course nobody is going to tell you to do so. This statement does nothing to disprove that those who wish to have lives outside the workplace aren't harassed by thei…

I was struck by the same careful wording. These kinds of policies and pressures never bother the True Believers who have already decided to make the company #1 in their lives. You know, the kind who will enlist an already-annoyed spouse's help to proof-read a work-related article on a Saturday morning. The problem is with those who still believe in a work/life balance that's something other than 90/10.

Re: Amazon boss Jeff Bezos defends company's workplace culture

#70

Post by virmundi » Mon, Aug 17, 2015, 3:43 PM UTC

swillis16 wrote: post #68

virmundi wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A client had an interesting system along this line. Every employee was required to leave for one week to make sure that day to day operations continued without interruption in their absence. As result, everyone took at least one week of vacation. Often they would take two at this time.

Was the client in the finance field? I've heard of something similar be used to ensure that employees weren't doing anything 'fishy'.

No, government contracting.I think they were burned in the past when someone was hit by a bus, so to speak