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Re: Atom

#591

Post by ulisesrmzroche »

adamors wrote: post #236
pete_aykroyd wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mostly agree with that although I think it's also kind of irrelevant in a practical sense because many programmers already have to know javascript for their work so you get a lot more people who can contribute right away. Aside from that -- lisp or javascript as the extension language, I'd love to see a brand-new extensible editor like emacs just to have a shot at changing terminology and some of the APIs. Emacs te…

It's true that a lot of people work with Javascript, but honestly I wouldn't say that they can contribute to anything right away. A lot of these people don't know more than $('#element').hide(); In fact, I would wager that there are more potential contributors to Emacs than there are to Atom.

That's totally exaggerating. Anyone who is that green to code is probably not even thinking extending their editor yet, and any working programmer has picked up more than enough JS in their to be able to write and understand far more than that line.

Plus, Emacs is a ghost town anyway. You're going to run into the problem that there are not bodies willing to use the editor, let alone extend it.

Re: Atom

#592

Post by babby »

I've been observing the reactions to this over several communities and I find it all to be rather interesting! [ Warning; meta comment incoming ]

http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1z0ykn/atom_lau...

Almost every single comment is negative, dismissive, one liners filled with half truths and very few child comments seek to rectify any misinformation or support a discussion.

The first and by far most-upvoted with a 700 point margin.

>I must be out of touch with modern development. I don't understand the thought process that leads people to be excited about a closed source, node.js text editor that reports your usage to Google.

It suggests the user simply scanned over other comments, glanced at atom's site and proceeded to regurgitate karma bait. I suppose it says a lot about the attention span of these people as there are also highly voted "tl;dr" request comments.

A perfect example of misinformation:

>[ unquietwiki 70 points] Isn't Brackets this already? Node.js/Chromium app with plugin support? > --- [ MrSenorSan 67 points] yup, but atom is not open source yay! wait a min... > --- [ kmeisthax 17 points ] Yes, but with Atom, you have the priviledge of paying GitHub money for a software product in a market with numerous competent free and Free Software options.

The supply of vitriol is unending.

It was the same with the /g/ thread, though surprisingly not quite as bad.

http://archive.rebeccablacktech.com/g/thread/S40550074

My point is, stay classy Hacker News. While you may even have similar opinions with these communities, the reception in this thread has been far more exciting and you put effort into your discussions. The contrast is massive, and especially interesting considering this is one the highest upvoted articles on HN, sitting alongside Neovim. suggesting we desperately want to replace our editors.

Re: Atom

#593

Post by victorhooi »

shittyanalogy wrote: post #433
victorhooi wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you actually think somebody at Github/Google is individually watching you ? As individual data points, I doubt we're that interesting. It's like NetFlix knowing what movies I watch. I doubt any single NetFlix employee could give two cents that Victor in Australia likes watching Once Upon A Time. (Awesome show, btw). However, if I watch Once Upon A Time, and I also watch XYZ, and then other people do the same, mayb…

Also, you do realize that no one is worried about whether "somebody at Github/Google is individually watching you." Unless of course they have an ex-lover at Github/Google. These organizations, and those capable of secretly subpoenaing them, have software and very fast computers that do the watching. And it's not watching, it's profile building. I'm not saying that this editor's phoning home of usage statistics is re…

Well, let's take your argument, and think it through to it's completion.

What do you think they will do when they have built a profile of you?

Actually, I don't think it's even a huge secret that companies have profiles of customers/users.

Google has a profile of you - and they build targeted ads. I don't see that as particularly evil - Gmail is ad-supported, and I'd rather those ads were relevant to me, rather than endless adds for Cialis (I have no idea what that even is), or for formal dresses or hair extensions.

Github probably has a profile of me - they use it to recommend repos they think I'll be interested in, and keep me coming back to the site.

Microsoft undoubtedly has a profile of me, Yahoo has a profile of me.

Even my supermarket, if I bothered to sign up to their rewards scheme, would have a profile of me.

My credit card company has a profile of me.

All of this is public knowledge - in fact, I think it's better that this stuff is out there, companies acknowledge it and people are aware of it.

Anyhow - to the point - what will happen when these companies, who sell products and services, have profiles of you?

To me - the likely outcome is - they will try to target you better, and get you to buy more products/services.

Can you think of any other likely scenarios?

Re: Atom

#594

Post by doorhammer »

hrktb wrote: post #480
gavinpc wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sometimes I get so confused that I erase entire files OT, but just this week my wife did something that really got me thinking about how far computers haven't come in terms of usability. I heard her say "O crap" from behind her macbook, and out of habit I came to assist. For some reason unknown to both of us, she had pasted the text of an email into a document called "thesis.docx", and then saved it. The text was c…

Sometimes I am boiling a stew, and while I am preparing another dish on the side, for some unknown reason I put the raw eggs on the stew instead of the fry pan. Pans have been there for centuries, and there is nothing preventing me from throwing stuff in the wrong place, nor undo the eggs in the stew. It's so intolerable, and I feel so ashamed and guilty on behalf of all the pan makers. Not. We are in a field where w…

I don't think he's voicing an expectation so much as lamenting a pervasive and realistically solvable, or at the very least approachable problem.

Re: Atom

#595

Post by victorhooi »

thothamon wrote: post #522
victorhooi wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm - but let's take your idea and think it through to it's completion. It's fine to say, oh but the privacy! But that in itself isn't an argument. It's just an appeal to emotion, with no facts. What do you think will happen if Github has usage data on how you use their text editor? Or what do you think will happen if Google knows what websites you search for? These aren't rhetorical questions - I'm actually curious…

Are you suggesting that it's OK for a private company to collect any data they wish? Do you feel this collection must be disclosed to be proper, or is it OK to just do it? Would "OK" data collection include keyboard logging, password and account info collection, video (camera) and audio collection? If you do draw a line somewhere -- anywhere, really -- then I'd suggest you're just like everyone else who thinks that p…

Lol, strawman argument much?

This is Github collecting usage metrics for their text editor. It should be fairly obvious to any programmer why they're collecting this information - it's to improve the product (which they will probably then sell).

The other thing is, Github is doing this in aggregate, and de-personalised.

But can you think of a single reason why a company like Github would want to collect, as you say, my password information, or webcam shots of me?

Apart from the stupid amount of bandwidth and storage they'd need to transmit and store webcam footage from all their users - what exactly could they gain from this?

What's the business case? How exactly would it make more people pony up money for Github subscription?

Since that's sort of their goal - to make money.

People seem to think there's some grand Illumati global conspiracy going on. There really isn't.

It's actually a lot simpler - this is capitalism, and companies exist to make money (within the bounds of the law).

If it makes them money, they'll probably do it.

If it doesn't, and it's "evil" they won't just do it for kicks of being evil. There needs to be a business case.

Somebody has to justify to their manager, who will then justify to their manager, why something will add value. Surely you've experienced this?

Now, I draw the line at the law, really - so if companies are fraudulently charging things to my credit card, or threatening to shoot me if I don't buy their product - yeah, that's illegal and I don't like that.

But if they're operating within the bounds of the law, or even if they're just being annoying and shoving ads in my face, I'll either put up with it, to use the service, or just use a different service.

As I said in a parent comment - the government is a completely different kettle of fish. However, companies are pretty easy to see through - their motives are, at least on a general level, pretty well defined.

Re: Atom

#596

Post by Wintamute »

tzs wrote: post #341

From "The Zen of Programming": ------ Hearing a disturbance, the master programmer went into the novice's cubicle. "Curse these personal computers!" cried the novice in anger, "To make them do anything I must use three or even four editing programs. Sometimes I get so confused that I erase entire files. This is truly intolerable!" The master programmer stared at the novice. "And what would you do to remedy this state…

If the master thinks that the human race has reached the absolute pinnacle of human/machine interfacing for text editing after just a few short decades of trying then he needs to go away and have a little sit down and a think about where he went wrong in life.

Re: Atom

#597

Post by eyko »

xerophtye wrote: post #383
hnriot wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* Almost know one here knows Lisp, make your own conclusions. nor English it seems :)

Still waiting for someone to correct the GP... "No one is born knowing JS" or "No one was born..."

Looks like timmm isn't a native English speaker, should his command of English be more important than his message?

There are languages where "to be born" is one verb and it makes it reasonable to make the mistake and think that in english it would be the same: "to born".

Re: Atom

#598

Post by Kluny »

Wintamute wrote: post #596
tzs wrote: post #341

From "The Zen of Programming": ------ Hearing a disturbance, the master programmer went into the novice's cubicle. "Curse these personal computers!" cried the novice in anger, "To make them do anything I must use three or even four editing programs. Sometimes I get so confused that I erase entire files. This is truly intolerable!" The master programmer stared at the novice. "And what would you do to remedy this state…

If the master thinks that the human race has reached the absolute pinnacle of human/machine interfacing for text editing after just a few short decades of trying then he needs to go away and have a little sit down and a think about where he went wrong in life.

Nah man, you're not enlightened. He's not saying don't build a new editor, just that you had better think long and hard before you decide to foist another learning curve on the world, and act like you're doing it a favor.

Also, https://xkcd.com/927/

Re: Atom

#599

Post by [deleted] »

gavinpc wrote: post #377
tzs wrote: post #341

From "The Zen of Programming": ------ Hearing a disturbance, the master programmer went into the novice's cubicle. "Curse these personal computers!" cried the novice in anger, "To make them do anything I must use three or even four editing programs. Sometimes I get so confused that I erase entire files. This is truly intolerable!" The master programmer stared at the novice. "And what would you do to remedy this state…

> Sometimes I get so confused that I erase entire files OT, but just this week my wife did something that really got me thinking about how far computers haven't come in terms of usability. I heard her say "O crap" from behind her macbook, and out of habit I came to assist. For some reason unknown to both of us, she had pasted the text of an email into a document called "thesis.docx", and then saved it. The text was c…

[deleted]

Re: Atom

#600

Post by shittyanalogy »

victorhooi wrote: post #595
thothamon wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that it's OK for a private company to collect any data they wish? Do you feel this collection must be disclosed to be proper, or is it OK to just do it? Would "OK" data collection include keyboard logging, password and account info collection, video (camera) and audio collection? If you do draw a line somewhere -- anywhere, really -- then I'd suggest you're just like everyone else who thinks that p…

Lol, strawman argument much? This is Github collecting usage metrics for their text editor. It should be fairly obvious to any programmer why they're collecting this information - it's to improve the product (which they will probably then sell). The other thing is, Github is doing this in aggregate, and de-personalised. But can you think of a single reason why a company like Github would want to collect, as you say,…

"It should be fairly obvious to any programmer why they're collecting this information" - It's also fairly obvious to any programmer how this can be abused.

"The other thing is, Github is doing this in aggregate, and de-personalised." - THEY SAY.

"What's the business case? How exactly would it make more people pony up money for Github subscription?" - Companies can and do use any information gained about you to build a profile about you. They use this profile to do things like target you ads as well as sell your profile to other companies.

"People seem to think there's some grand Illumati global conspiracy going on." - No we don't, this is about basic privacy best practices.

"If it makes them money, they'll probably do it." - Exactly.

"There needs to be a business case." - There is always a business case. "Business Case" is an abstract concept.

"Now, I draw the line at the law" - The law is an enormous grey area. Essentially you haven't drawn a line. What you've argued is against identity theft and violent threats, not privacy protection.

"But if they're operating within the bounds of the law" - In a democratic society, these things are for us - the society - to decide and change. If you don't agree with the bounds of the law then it is your duty to act accordingly. Arguments like, "as long as it's not breaking the law" have very little use in a democracy.

"government is a completely different kettle of fish" - The government can secretly subpoena these companies for any information.

"companies are pretty easy to see through" - That makes no sense. I get what you're saying, they're trying to make money. There is no one size fits all strategy for making money and businesses do what some people consider "the wrong thing" all the time in effort to just make money.

-----------------------------------------------

People here are concerned about basic privacy best practices, not companies making money or governments spying. No one here is worried about some grand conspiracy. There is absolutely nothing wrong with not wanting software that is running on your own personal machine to send statistics about you to a third party whether they are purported to be anonymous or not. It's unfortunate that the societal norm is to turn a blind eye to these basic best practices, but it doesn't mean that those of us that still respect them should too.

The concept is this: Trusting closed source software is not something I want to do.

Not: Github is going to fuck me in the ass if I let them see my usage statistics.

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