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Re: Atom

#411
post #274

A common thread or line of argument that I find when reading about new editors is their out-of-the-box ease of use compared to Emacs and Vim. For example, a quote from the Atom blog: >Sublime and TextMate offer convenience but only limited extensibility. On the other end of the spectrum, Emacs and Vim offer extreme flexibility, but they aren't very approachable and can only be customized with special-purpose scriptin…

There is no reason why "editing plain text" should be anything other than immediately intuitive. Advanced, time-saving features, like multi-cursors or regexp-based find-and-replace, can and should be progressively revealed through normal use of the software. This ludditic reverence for user-hostile text editors is one of the more perplexing and frustrating things about our industry.

> There is no reason why "editing plain text" should be anything other than immediately intuitive.

Are you suggesting that it isn't in Emacs?

Well, I remember using Emacs for the first time. It opened up and I started editing the opened file. I saved the file from the file menu (which also showed me the shortcut for saving the file the next time I have to save something). Done. Now, this is exactly what a novice would do with notepad.

I found that many people 'demonize' Emacs just because they found it unfamiliar. Sure it's unfamiliar. For about a day. Then, it's just as familiar as any other user interface. I now used Emacs for, well, the shell, the dired and wdired, multiple cursors, keyboard macros, project-wide grepping and everything in between. Getting familiar with the editor was a great thing to have done, however unfamiliar it was in the beginning.

With the benefit of hindsight, I can truly say that learning how to properly use a text editor, especially one so powerful as Emacs, is the one thing the any programmer absolutely must do. So, even if the editor isn't "anything other than immediately intuitive", it's still a good idea to wrap your head around the non-intuitive things.

Re: Atom

#412
post #23

The more I see new editors floating around, the more I'm sticking to VIm. I am getting old, or it's a just a survival instinct. On the other hand, the more the better, but we have already too many editors around.

I've sworn by SublimeText until now. And Atom is getting released during a time when I'm increasingly learning to love console-only computing. I envision a day when I can travel the world with a cheap laptop/chromebook and do all my coding remotely via SSH.. and Vim is very much at the core of that dream. Now I just have to master it.

Don't dream it - be it.

I work this way most of the time now, regardless of which machine I am currently using: http://blog.schwuk.com/2014/01/15/chromebook-plus-digitaloce...

Re: Atom

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but it's a question of accessibility. Far more people can program in JavaScript than Lisp, and far more people use GUI desktop software that follows traditional GUI user-interface paradigms, than do things inside their terminal. (Edit: or terminal-style buffers/frames.) So that's why my statement was limited to what " desktop software" could be. :) I mean, I use LibreOffice, which is FOSS, but I am never going…

Emacs is GUI desktop software. Few people use it in a terminal. Also, people didn't born knowing Javascript. They learnt it. And one could argue that Lisp is just as easy to learn, if not easier.

I'm sure the emacs GUI runs great on your macbook, but for people who live on remove linux servers day in and day out, trust me they are using emacs in the terminal.

Re: Atom

#415
post #350

I've just had play around with the beta. It looks like it's using a version of CodeMirror 4 (as it has multiple ranges). Fairly fast but it doesn't match Sublime Text just yet Initial impressions: it's early days but this thing is just oozing for customisation. The fact it's written in JS means writing packages is pretty simple compared to Python for ST; we're going to see TONNES of addons for it. I can already think…

Fwiw, Brackets ( http://brackets.io ) supports a similar degree of customization since it's also written in JS/HTML, uses CodeMirror, and offers lots of extensibility APIs. And it's MIT-licensed. Writing an extension is as easy as this: https://github.com/adobe/brackets/wiki/Simple-"Hello-World"-...

Looks like in Atom you can just inspect elements of the editor and change them right there. In Brackets if you want to change the font of the editor then you have to write an extension or search for the CSS file of the editor which is barely editable with Brackets because it's slows down with the somewhat bigger CSS file, syntax highlight stops at the half of the file and searching was extremely slow for me in this big file.

Re: Atom

#416

This might make developing on chromebook viable.

There's already many, many ways to do this and it works fine for me on (primarily) web development.

Re: Atom

#417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but it's a question of accessibility. Far more people can program in JavaScript than Lisp, and far more people use GUI desktop software that follows traditional GUI user-interface paradigms, than do things inside their terminal. (Edit: or terminal-style buffers/frames.) So that's why my statement was limited to what " desktop software" could be. :) I mean, I use LibreOffice, which is FOSS, but I am never going…

> That's the paradigm shift. You can make desktop apps in Python, Ruby, Tcl, hell even PHP for a long time now. No compilation needed. Whether this works effectively or not comes rests almost entirely on how good their architecture is. "Hackable" doesn't mean anything if the codebase is a coupled mess. Given GH's pedigree, I don't expect that this is the case; which means there will be some ramp-up time learning the…

I don't follow. These hipster JS frameworks have to work well on phones and various inconsistent browsers. Targeting the desktop and one JS environment seems feasible.

Re: Atom

#418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm - but let's take your idea and think it through to it's completion. It's fine to say, oh but the privacy! But that in itself isn't an argument. It's just an appeal to emotion, with no facts. What do you think will happen if Github has usage data on how you use their text editor? Or what do you think will happen if Google knows what websites you search for? These aren't rhetorical questions - I'm actually curious…

I don't think you honestly want to know "what scenarios people actually think will play out" and that you question this way solely for the sake of argument. I think you have your mind made up and would rather snark at people that have an opposing opinion. That being said, it's no stretch to understand that some people just don't want to volunteer personal information especially originating from software. There are en…

Well, no - you assuming it's rhetorical when I clearly stated it's not is snarky....

As I said, there were two scenarios that I outlined which were unlikely - Google/Github posting my text editor usage publicly on their website, linked to my name, and employees of those companies individually trawling through.

The scenario of them mining for trends in the data, in order to improve the software, I'm perfectly fine with.

The scenario of the government being involved - I agree that's bad - however, we haven't seen any indications that is true for the wide public.

Can you actually come up with any other scenarios that are both 1. probably and 2. worrying?

Re: Atom

#419
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but it's a question of accessibility. Far more people can program in JavaScript than Lisp, and far more people use GUI desktop software that follows traditional GUI user-interface paradigms, than do things inside their terminal. (Edit: or terminal-style buffers/frames.) So that's why my statement was limited to what " desktop software" could be. :) I mean, I use LibreOffice, which is FOSS, but I am never going…

Emacs has pull down menus, cut and paste, CUA bindings, displays graphics, plays sounds... WTF do you mean by "terminal-style buffers/frames?"

I don't mean to sound hipster or anything but I prefer software with native look-n-feel on the platform I'm using.

I tried Emacs on OS X (proglang on Coursera asks students to use it for editing SML), gave it a couple of hours and switched back to Sublime.

I understand I missed all its glory and power but at least Sublime scrolls like OS X apps scroll, has shortcuts like OS X apps and looks like a OS X app.

But then again, I understand why you might think this is a fool's position. I'm okay with that.

Re: Atom

#420
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm - but let's take your idea and think it through to it's completion. It's fine to say, oh but the privacy! But that in itself isn't an argument. It's just an appeal to emotion, with no facts. What do you think will happen if Github has usage data on how you use their text editor? Or what do you think will happen if Google knows what websites you search for? These aren't rhetorical questions - I'm actually curious…

> It's fine to say, oh but the privacy! But that in itself isn't an argument. It's just an appeal to emotion, with no facts. How about: I don't like to be watched. That's a fact , though I'm sure you'll dismiss it as an appeal to emotion.

Do you actually think somebody at Github/Google is individually watching you?

As individual data points, I doubt we're that interesting.

It's like NetFlix knowing what movies I watch.

I doubt any single NetFlix employee could give two cents that Victor in Australia likes watching Once Upon A Time. (Awesome show, btw).

However, if I watch Once Upon A Time, and I also watch XYZ, and then other people do the same, maybe they get to improve their algorithm. Woot to them.

Maybe Github want to know what features get used. Or what performance issues people are experiencing.

Maybe it's definitions, but I don't consider this watching - they want to know what we do as an aggregate, but it's not like there's a little imp beside me watching me as I type.

(Although I get how some people might feel that way, if it's just a black box to them).

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