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“No tax on tips” is an industry plant

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Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#591
post #570
post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the definition of a good server in this case one who can serve more tables than others in the same amount of time? In most places tips are mandatory and % does not depend much on anything unless someone messed up. Commission on sales is very different from restaurant tips.

More so than tables per unit time, it's dollars per unit time. When I was a server, the usual metric of how well you performed on a given shift was the total of your bills ("how much you sold"). The best servers were good at encouraging parties to spend on the things they were on the fence about: the appetizer, the second drink, the dessert. Even with the volatility of individual tipping decisions, getting your table…

I haven't thought of that, makes sense. That likely applies more to higher-end non-chain places and tourist spots with lots of first time visitors. Regular customers will often know what they want.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When visiting the States I have observed on a couple of occasions where a customer shouted at staff and used the threat of withholding a tip as leverage to be unreasonably nasty to wait staff. The service industry in the US is awful, and the tipping culture is really toxic. I don't understand those that defend the American approach.

To be clear, I don't defend it. I'm mildly against it. Unfortunately I don't in it's at the root of entitled customer behavior in the States, I think there's a deeper cultural contempt for service workers. You'll see similar behavior towards workers who aren't tipped but who provide some sort of face-to-face service, like cashiers and teachers.

> Unfortunately I don't in it's at the root of entitled customer behavior in the States, I think there's a deeper cultural contempt for service workers.

Completely agree with this position. I didn't mean to say that removal of tipping would solve the problem, more that it is an enabler of toxic behaviour. The more opportunities provided, the more likely assholes will be emboldened causing a normalisation effect both in them, and others around them.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#593
post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is evidence correlating being attractive to getting better tips, interestingly.

100% this! I hate how the main narrative it seems like Americans believe about tipping, especially among a certain set of privileged college-educated Democrat types, is that tipping is this virtuous practice that benefits the underclass so much, when really, it benefits restaurant owners most, and if any workers are better off under a tipping system, it's a small minority, like highly attractive white female servers…

The servers I knew dyed their hair blonde to get better tips. Writing a smiley on the receipt worked wonders too.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#594
post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Some restaurants have tried this out, and it's backfired. " Where I live, many restaurants have the "required 18% gratuity" thing and ask that you not tip beyond that. Maybe this is a PNW hippie specific thing, but a movement against tipping exists and is being ran by some good, successful, restaurants.

Making the tip required isn't a movement against tipping, it reenforces the idea. Try increasing the posted food prices by 18%, or add a "18% owner boat fund", instead and see what happens. You won't last the week before you are bankrupt. The amount is exactly the same, so from a financial point of view there is absolutely no difference, but the experience of "helping out the little guy" is lost, and that will chase…

Personally, I hate the whole concept of tipping as promoted in the USA.

I see it as a way that owners can avoid paying the relevant taxes for employing their staff and instead offload part of that payment onto the customers. The arbitrariness of it also annoys me - why just waiting staff?

I'm in the UK, so we mainly have service charges added to the bill to take the place of tips which is a much better system. I also like the Japanese culture of non-tipping and that they may get offended by customers leaving tips.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#595
post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making the tip required isn't a movement against tipping, it reenforces the idea. Try increasing the posted food prices by 18%, or add a "18% owner boat fund", instead and see what happens. You won't last the week before you are bankrupt. The amount is exactly the same, so from a financial point of view there is absolutely no difference, but the experience of "helping out the little guy" is lost, and that will chase…

Personally, I hate the whole concept of tipping as promoted in the USA. I see it as a way that owners can avoid paying the relevant taxes for employing their staff and instead offload part of that payment onto the customers. The arbitrariness of it also annoys me - why just waiting staff? I'm in the UK, so we mainly have service charges added to the bill to take the place of tips which is a much better system. I also…

> I hate the whole concept of tipping as promoted in the USA.

Of all the ways people choose to spend their money, tipping is a strange one to hate. It is not like Taylor Swift pointlessly flying around the world to the detriment of the environment, and thus everyone. It seems pretty foolish, I get that, but fools and their money are to be easily parted. What is the harm in their foolish fun?

> I see it as a way that owners can avoid paying the relevant taxes for employing their staff

Assuming staff will be paid more. That is unlikely in a lot of cases.

Granted, if you are in one of the states that allows tip credits that would be more true given that they would be legally required to move up to minimum wage irrespective of tips, but many states require that staff be paid at least the full minimum wage already and tipping is still just as common in those places.

It is not like McDonalds is paying their staff more without tips (above excepted). Like the death of manufacturing saw an end to high paying manufacturing jobs, the end of tipping would see an end to the $50/hr. waitress. It wouldn't be supplanted.

> why just waiting staff?

You can tip whomever you want — or not tip at all. But in most cases only the business is liable, so it is the only entity you need to please. When alcohol is involved, however, the server becomes liable, so it is in your interest to grease those wheels else get cut off. It is not like anyone tips the waiting staff at McDonald's. It traditionally has only been a custom where alcohol is found for that reason.

But it wasn't long before people realized that they enjoy it! It gives them the thrill of "sticking it to the man", or "helping out the little guy", or in some cases "Look at me. I can pay you more than your own boss can! Aren't I great?". In fact, they liked it so much they have started tipping in other places.

> I'm in the UK, so we mainly have service charges added to the bill to take the place of tips which is a much better system.

That sounds like a tip by another name. How is that a better system? It seems exactly the same (except the customer can't easily opt out of it). Many places in the US do that too (oft known as an auto-gratuity), especially for large parties in restaurants, for what it is worth.

> I also like the Japanese culture of non-tipping and that they may get offended by customers leaving tips.

Whereas on the other side of the pond the opposite is true. I picked up some shifts as a server a while back for what is a long story, but suffice to say money wasn't my motivation. I was collecting a developer's paycheck at the same time, meaning, as I am sure you can math, I was making way more than 99% of the people I was serving, so I felt pretty strange and pathetic taking their "pity money", so I tried rejecting them.

That didn't end well. Customers started getting quite upset with me. In one case I bypassed the tip screen on the credit card machine and the customer not fully paying attention didn't notice and walked out without tipping. Five minutes later he comes stomping back in and gave me an earful about not taking his tip while shoving cash in my face.

I used to think like you, but once I actually experienced it, it became abundantly clear that the customers are there to tip in the kind of establishment that is built on that type of business. It is part of the experience.

Those sitting at home staring at a screen might not understand the appeal, but they aren't the customer.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#596

Some interesting points: ~40% of tipped workers don't make enough to get taxed anyway, no tax on tips would actually advantage better paid workers like casino dealers who don't need the help. NToT is described as a campaign to distract from minimum wage increase initiatives.

That’s a weird way to say a sizable majority of tipped workers do pay taxes and will benefit from this.

The tax system is graduated. If 40% don’t make enough to hit a band where income is taxed, then you can assume it’s a gentle ride from paying no taxes to not paying much taxes. And anyways, payroll taxes are by far the higher burden for service workers than income taxes.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#597
post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contactless is basically non existent in America? I know America has always been backwards (cheques were still in use well into the 21st century, card pins didn’t seem to catch on before contactless became a thing about a decade ago), but I thought contactless was quite high nowadays, especiallly with phones and watches. Certainly I’ve had no problem paying contactless in the cities I’ve been to recently - New York,…

i don't know why you'd think that. I don't live in a major metropolitan area and have used contactless payments for everything for the last 5-6 years. Vet, grocery store, fedex/ups, pharmacy, restaurants, retail.

Because the op said

“ Tap-to-pay is almost as common as someone writing you a paper check or an IOU, out here.”

I.e rarer than hens teeth.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is nonsense for most jobs, and it's nonsense here too. Very rarely are any jobs treated on pure merit of good vs bad performance. Ultimately it ends up being mostly the luck of having reasonable management and good opportunities. Reasonable management is very hard to come by in the restaurant industry. And either way, if you wanted to believe the merit-based approach, you're talking maybe the top 5% of servers a…

You can just look this up, it's not a secret. Median total pay, including tips, in the US is $32k for waiters. In France, it's €22k. The UK is £23k. Even factoring in health insurance costs — ~4.5k/year for an Obamacare plan — waiters make more in America. Waiters in the US make significantly more than their British and French counterparts, due to tipping: the US minimum wage is lower than the British and French mini…

yeah just ignore cost of living differences and rampant wage theft I guess

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#599
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm happy that CA doesn't set a lower min wage for tipped workers, but the problem is that in many/most places in CA, $19/hr is still not a living wage, so the tips are more or less required to keep those workers housed and eating. A living wage in most population centers in CA is nearly $30/hr.

People argued the living wage was $15/hour in California a few years ago. Then it was $20/hour. Now you're saying $30/hour. I have to ask what is causing what's considered a living wage to increase so rapidly, because it appears to be increasing far faster than the national inflation rate. It sounds like a wage-price spiral, though I'm not aware of anyone claiming we're in one.

You are seeing an environment that is highly conducive to a wage spiral, but so far wages haven't shown reactive enough to find that a spiral has set in. Comments like the above indicate that it wouldn't take much of a spark to see it ignite, though.

Granted, like a lot of things in economics, you can only tell in hindsight long after it has played out and the data is collected and analyzed, so it is also possible that the spiral is already underway and we just don't know it yet.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is nonsense for most jobs, and it's nonsense here too. Very rarely are any jobs treated on pure merit of good vs bad performance. Ultimately it ends up being mostly the luck of having reasonable management and good opportunities. Reasonable management is very hard to come by in the restaurant industry. And either way, if you wanted to believe the merit-based approach, you're talking maybe the top 5% of servers a…

You can just look this up, it's not a secret. Median total pay, including tips, in the US is $32k for waiters. In France, it's €22k. The UK is £23k. Even factoring in health insurance costs — ~4.5k/year for an Obamacare plan — waiters make more in America. Waiters in the US make significantly more than their British and French counterparts, due to tipping: the US minimum wage is lower than the British and French mini…

$32k = 27.5k€, and if we include the insurance numbers you provided: $27.5k = 23.5k€

> waiters make more in America

By apparently 1.5k€ per year? Not a strong argument as it stands and we haven't even begun talking about the lifestyle and workplace differences between the two countries.

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