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Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

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Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#591

A lot of people don't know what this Section 174 is about, so here's a brief explainer. Normally, when you have expenses, you deduct them off your revenue to find your taxable profit. If you have $1 million in sales, and $900k in costs, you have $100k in profit, and the government taxes you on that profit. Section 174 says you can't do this for software engineers. If you pay a software engineer, that's not "really" a…

So it applies to software engineers but under what definition of software engineer? This [1] is the only definition the code actually give. > (3) Software development > For purposes of this section, any amount paid or incurred in connection with the development of any software shall be treated as a research or experimental expenditure. 1. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/174 ----- Is a test or QA engineer c…

I’m a solo founder and sometimes outsource projects. How does that work if I pay a contractor a few thousand for a project? Are contractors allowed to be deducted fully at 100% expense?

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#592

Thank you for helping to tackle this. The silence on this issue for the past few years from smaller software companies and their affiliates was surprising to me. The recent "time bomb" article was one of the few media pieces that actually took the time to describe it as anything other than a "tax cut for huge tech companies", which was refreshing. My current favorite theory as to why there hasn't been more of an outc…

Many larger companies have an incentive to attribute layoffs to AI, because that serves to hype their AI products. Basically, they didn't want to say, "we are laying people off for financial reasons." Even though the financial reasons were triggered by a change to the tax code, because that doesn't play well in the media, particularly during a period of elevated profits. So Google, Microsoft, etc. laid a bunch of engineers off to reduce their tax burden and used AI as an excuse.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#593
I think people are missing the actual process used by Finance teams relating to this issue. I am a former CFO and spent a fair amount of time with this issue in my last role. The firm had a significant amount of software engineering expense related to its core operating system that was the backbone of the company.

The FASB accounting rules drive the capitalization of software expenses, not the tax rules. The FASB definition of GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principals) for US firms is very specific and requires significant detailed tracking to comply.

As noted in one of the other posts, many companies want to capitalize as much software engineering expense as possible as that leads to higher operating income and net income. Bonuses, option grants and stock prices tend to be tied to those metrics. The argument is that building a piece of software should be treated like purchasing it off the shelf. If a firm pays $1M to implement SAP, it does not have to expense it all in one year, but rather depreciates it over its “expected life.” Since “expected life” is difficult to define for every piece of software, there are default lifetimes (similar to saying motor vehicles default to a 5 year depreciation schedule).

Tax then generally follows the GAAP accounting except when the government intervenes to try and increase capital spending. Periodically the government will allow accelerated depreciation which increases operating expenses for tax purposes only which reduces current period cash taxes. Note total taxes do not change, only when they get paid.

The Section 174 under discussion here is simply the same idea then applied to software development in an effort to juice hiring.

For the people discussing whether the IRS is effectively tracking and enforcing this - the IRS really does not matter. A companies auditors enforce it. Without all of the necessary paperwork/digital audit trail, a firm in not permitted by the auditors to capitalize the expense. The same auditors have to sign off on the tax treatment as well. Finally, with respect to maintenance, the idea is meant to be similar to the treatment for machinery ( i.e. traditional capital expenditures). When a firm puts gas in the company truck or replaces tires or fixes a windshield, they do not capitalize those expenses. The idea is the expense do not fundamentally improve the item or meaningful extend the life beyond the initial expectations. Following that line of thought, maintenance releases are not thought to extend the life of the software while significant improvements to the software do and therefore can be capitalized.

DISCLAIMER - while I was a CFO, I was not a Certified Accountant. What I have described above is what the accountants and my audit firms described to me as I worked through this issue in preparing financial statements.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#594
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is something that both impacts them and impacts you if you're a developer. This tax treatment can increase the cost of a dev by 5-15% which leads to less hiring and a looser job market. Which will impact us even if we're not looking for work because most companies look at market rates when deciding raises.

Possibly, but I think if YC companies could get away with just cutting everyone they would too. I don't doubt there's an impact here, but it's not because they have a real interest in any other topics that concern me and hiring, H1B and so on.

All companies would prefer to have 0 employees if possible. This isn't special about YC companies. Heck it's not even special about companies. If I could buy a roof that was slightly more expensive but I never had to hire a roofer I would.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#595
post #561

A lot of people don't know what this Section 174 is about, so here's a brief explainer. Normally, when you have expenses, you deduct them off your revenue to find your taxable profit. If you have $1 million in sales, and $900k in costs, you have $100k in profit, and the government taxes you on that profit. Section 174 says you can't do this for software engineers. If you pay a software engineer, that's not "really" a…

So the 2017 tax cuts that introduced this change were a massive boon to US companies, particularly the tax holiday on repatriated foreign profits. So why do we need to give these large, very profitable companies another tax cut? Or maybe we should be asking, what of the 2017 tax cuts are they willing to give up to pay for this change? Remember that after a few years, none of this matters. You might be paying $200k in…

for the big companies, this makes enough sense, but theres been new businesses opened since 2017, who did not benefit from that tax holiday. why should they be dealimg with this tax hike for everytime they grow their business?

i dont know how this is anti-worker? it's an extra cost to growing the number of people youre hiring, where you need them for 5 years. i guess businesses should start witholding RSUs and starting bonuses until youve been there for 5 years to match your tax ammortization?

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#596
post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ford engineers, P&G food researchers, and architect salaries are capitalized just like Software development costs. I'd say the majority of the posters on this thread who are answering questions (as opposed to asking questions) believe this is not the case. What is a good source for learning more about which categories of employee salaries are amortized? Besides becoming a CPA.

You can easily check that architects follow the same rules. When they work towards creating a new building their salaries are amortized

I wonder if most of the people in this thread should then change their minds on this topic, since the #1 reason seems to be that software development is being singled out.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#597
post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are some charts and tables showing Amazon income taxes: https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AMZN/amazon/total-...

Incidentally, should we really count "income taxes" as something "Amazon pays"? Amazon doesn't pay income taxes. Amazon employees do. The fact that Amazon conducts the transaction via withholding seems irrelevant. It's the employee losing the money.

i generally think they should be counted to the company as a sales tax. amazon is losing the money, because theyre paying it to the government and not the employee, ao they need to increase the pay accordingly if they want the employee to have a certain amount.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#599
post #3

Thanks for working on this guys. The current tax code is fairly crazy: you could spend a few million in salaries, sell 200k of software in a year and possibly owe taxes on that. Even if the company would otherwise be shutting down. The traditional capital asset treatment applied to software leaves a lot to be desired. Some software is a capital asset, but much just isn’t. Or at least should be considered to depreciat…

I would be surprised if nearly all software companies wouldn't consider their code to be a valuable capital asset. For example, do you think your company would be okay with releasing commits/snapshots of their source code and design docs into the public domain once they hit 5 years old? Or do they currently depreciate too quickly ?

you could test this by looking for MIT licensed code on github?

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#600
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporate taxes are indeed levied on net income after expenses . Trading money for capital assets is not considered expense. If you start the year with 0$ in your bank. After the end of the year you have made $200k in revenue. However you "spent" $200k on software salaries. However, because these are software costs, they must be depreciated over 5 years, so only 20% of that $200k software cost can be applied as depre…

You do, however, have $160k worth of software that is generating ~$16k/mo in revenue (or more since you presumably did not make that $200k evenly spread out across year 1 while you were developing the software), so in year 2 you could halt further development, use a loan to get through the 2 months it takes to make the money to pay your taxes, and then make $176k profit. Then you pay your taxes on year 2 and walk awa…

the required thing here of "lay off or fire all the developers" isnt a great result though
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