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U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

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Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Fun" fact: the Therac-25 tragedy was in part caused by this type of usage - folks who know it so well they just blast through the screens from memory. But the software in question wasn't resilient to this use-case, and apparently resulted in an inconsistent state.

Good example. --- The system distinguished between errors that halted the machine, requiring a restart, and errors which merely paused the machine (which allowed operators to continue with the same settings using a keypress). However, some errors which endangered the patient merely paused the machine, and the frequent occurrence of minor errors caused operators to become accustomed to habitually unpausing the machine…

This sounds like poor consideration for edge cases - not really a problem with the UI or people clicking through it too fast. Anything that could be interpreted as remotely fatal should've shut the machine down.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#592

I've read that doctors now spend as much as 50% of their time documenting their work. Companies such as Epic, which provide the software that hospitals use to build databases of patient data, have been big winners in the new world of hospitals-depending-on-software. But did the doctors become more productive? By almost any measure, they became less productive. People in tech keep thinking more tech will solve problem…

my experience at a healthtech startup is that any kind of cohesive product design gets perversed by nonsensical legal requirements and leadership pressures to check the boxes of comparable products because that's how the product they've used in the past did it

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. So much this. In residency we are taught “document, document, document” and “this is a medical legal document” which leads to defensive medicine. Another point of why we spend more time documenting is billing. Coders/billers continue to come back and asking us to add more details about a diagnosis. More details = more charges to bill or up level. So the next progress note or office visit, I go back to add more.…

> concierge direct primary care model How does this reduce/eliminate the “better document this thoroughly in case I get sued” work? Or are the legal worries overblown/over-relied upon for over-documentation?

Direct primary care (DPC)/concierge is mostly cash only so you document as you see fit and are not held to the rules of having to use an EHR/EMR. Many of those who do this model are on paper as they are more “old school” at this time. Younger physicians would document more just because they are taught this in residency but some of the malpractice lawyers we had presentations with often said document well but don’t over do it as over-documentation can mean more things to be picked at when your are being sued. That said, over documentation helps billers code for every single thing they can and want more over documentation. So in general, they will hassle you to over-document. They will send you messages in the EMR, send you emails, even sometimes use the pager service until you update your note.

I think the legal worries, when it’s in concierge medicine, are over blown because at that point you are seeing a physician that is doing more quality than quantity to make ends meet. You don’t need to document to appease the biller but document enough to know what you did and so that you could share your chart notes with other providers in case the patient ever moved to another provider or (super rare) if they were admitted into the hospital and they needed some documentation for whatever reason. DPC, you are the boss and control how many patients you want to take on. In general private practice, you are at the mercy of the hospital system, payers, etc etc and are pulled in 7 different ways to make money which only benefits them and not the physician. Even then, with primary care, you are told you are a “loss leader” since we aren’t specialists and generally dumped on in the medical field.

In “private” practice, you need to see 20-30/day patients to make your salary (break even) without bonuses within a hospital/health system. That means about 400-450 patients per month. Major payers limit you to 3,000 patients under your care overall.

Studies show that 1,000:1 should be the max patient:physician ratio but many of us are around the 2-3k mark. In a true concierge medicine/direct primacy care model, since it’s mostly cash/subscription model, most of physicians average 300-500 patient panel per year which is about 4-6 patients a day. If you want to see more and make more on the side, see 400-600 patients. Are you an older doc who wants to practice but not see many patients, see 2-4 patients a day, 1-2 days a week and cover costs and still make a comfortable living.

Like I said, something is going break in the medical system and it’s only a matter of time. When it does, the healthcare disparities and inequalities will really become more apparent. Hospital systems/admins/insurance companies are now leaning on mid-levels like NPs/PAs as a bandaid to the issues of patient access but what will happen when you burn them out too?

/rant

Tldr, concierge medicine, your own boss, do whatever you want with your charting. You can chart 5 words or 5 paragraphs. Most physicians will chart enough to document well for medical and legal reasons and not have to worry about billers muddying the waters to over-document. Quality time with patients = less legal risk.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#594

I've read that doctors now spend as much as 50% of their time documenting their work. Companies such as Epic, which provide the software that hospitals use to build databases of patient data, have been big winners in the new world of hospitals-depending-on-software. But did the doctors become more productive? By almost any measure, they became less productive. People in tech keep thinking more tech will solve problem…

is this really caused by tech or by more regulation and demands from insurance companies?

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what you're saying is HTML5 and server side rendering should be the go to before any client side junk.

I dunno if they are saying that, but I wholeheartedly endorse this idea. Add the "client side junk" (fancy Javascript stuff, etc.) as enhancement on top for those who want it after the required functionality is being properly and reliably served by the "core technologies". Serve the need properly first, then make it "nice".

I had a coworker tell me that javascript should be added like color: stuff that makes it nicer to use for those that have it turned on, but not necessary for those that don't have it at all (or can't see color).

Kind of a hard core position in my opinion considering it's ignoring the sometimes advantages / use cases for client side code (like complicated SPAs where the user is explicitly buying into the idea of running lots of code in their browser, figma comes to mind) but I still like to think about it here and there.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or nationalize the documentation infrastructure. This is not a problem in the developed world. i give my doctor my tax ID and they can see my entire patient history, all of my medication, and relevant notes from other providers.

I work in EHR as of this year. About a week into the new job, one of the older software engineers made a comment about how what we do should really just be a function of the federal government. I was like, "but wouldn't we be out of a job of they did?" And he said, "sure, but we'll probably be dead by the time they figure it out anyway".

If you're in the US, the federal government actually created one one of the most widely used EHRs and set of clinical applications in the world, called VistA. It was made for the VA but is used outside of it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VistA

It's actually public domain and open-source. Unfortunately the VA is in an ongoing project to replace it with Cerner Millennium.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is such a small percent and where are you getting your data?

"Long COVID" and medical journals.... Even the highest estimates only have it as a very small percentage of symptomatic patients which is already a subset of the general population.

If you change it instead to be a subset of the working age population, does the percentage look higher?

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#598
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some healthcare provider organizations now employ medical scribes who follow physicians around and do all their EHR data entry. This is expensive, but can be cost effective because then the physicians have more time to perform billable procedures.

The least capable doctor's time is worth $300/hr. The scribe is paid what, $25/hr? This is so much like hearing of engineers that will not hire a $20/hr maid due to egalitarian reasons so they squat in filth or waste all their free hours cleaning, all while capable and willing cleaners starve. Insane.

Personal hours are not fungible. You can't replace a bit of cleaning time throughout the week with an additional $600.

Also there are plenty of costs to employing others besides the hourly cost. Large organizations have huge fixed costs to cover them. Consider:

- liability

- maintaining of knowledge and training to hire help

- skill to source and hire people

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#599
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right about daycare/school closings. Even now, essentially post-covid, if our two-year-old gets COVID, that's a 10-day quarantine from daycare. That's 10 days where one of the parents has to work from home and be horribly unproductive because they are watching a child at the same time. And you can get COVID repeatedly. It often from the daycare itself, but also from a sibling who is in school. Even with full,…

sounds like washington state lol. one of the reasons we moved from there. now at my kids preschool, if a kid gets sick they stay home, if they are better the next day they come back. no PCR tests, no missing 2 weeks if any member of the family was sick, its great

Would you be willing to share the preschool? I would like to avoid sending my kids to a preschool that pretends asymptomatic spread of diseases doesn't exist.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#600
no carrot -- before people thought if they worked hard just for little longer they will escape the trap, now with housing doubling in 2 years, it's become hopeless. With no end goal, only thing left is acceptance and survival, and survival as is doesn't require me putting in 200%, or even 60%.
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