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My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

danlawton.substack.com

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Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#591

Post by neonate »

denton-scratch wrote: post #583
EdwardDiego wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...I don't really want to hear about your religious beliefs, tbh, I've had a lifetime of it already, and I've decided you're all charlatans. Especially if you unnecessarily revert to jargon when trying to explain your beliefs, you mention "tulku" four times, but define it zero times. This is indicative of in-group signaling.

May I suggest that you not read articles about Buddhist meditation then? Less still the comments? I sort-of supposed that nobody would read these comments if they weren't interested. I avoid articles about pay in the SF area, AI models, Tesla cars, and many other topics. If I read one by accident, I just move on - I don't post a comment whingeing that I'm not interested. I don't belong to an "in-group" here; I used t…

Why did you stop after 40 years? That's a long time, and most people wouldn't.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#592

Post by josyulakrishna »

blix wrote: post #471
josyulakrishna wrote: post #252

I can only say that, please do not practice any advanced kind of meditation without a guru/experienced teacher and don't do drugs or alcohol if you are meditating.

I've been starting a personal meditation practice, but I have no teacher outside what I read (mainly Easwaran). Do you have any recommendation for how one might find an experienced teacher while living in the west?

I can't say anything about how to find a teacher in the west, but usually its good to be with a satsang (set of people who do the same practice with an aim for the truth) at least in that way they can be guided in the right direction.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#593

Post by abledon »

iakov wrote: post #522
abledon wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10-day vipassana retreat was worst decision i did in my life lol

Why do you feel like this? I'm wondering because I'm considering going on one next year.

So after coming back, I had the opportunity to speak with some old yoga teachers who had been around for a while and studied how modern organizations like the "Vipassana" one by Goenka was created. Vipassana used to be only administered to people who were already very 'fit' to meditate 6-8 hours and who were ready to 'go deep'. Think years of training at an ashram, doing all the marshal arts/yoga things. (think shaolin/ashtanga yoga, not that easy lululemon fluff). I also spoke to a chinese massage person who dealt with lots of martial arts students (these guys were tough) and some had come back from the center _fuucked up_ in their nervous system.

I think its a symptom of our western culture where we can try things out without the necessary 'pre-conditions' or prerequisites taken care of.

If your comfortable sitting cross-legged for around 2-3 hours upright, no back support, and dont have knee pain after a session like that, also have no stress and no psychological issues... then perhaps its for you. Some people seem to benefit from it... others, it makes them 500% _more_ crazy than before.

I also hear its great for criminals whose minds are so 'set' in their ways its hard to mentally break through to them. some videos have been made about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phHib5VaCeE

I think for lots of the HN crowd, we are type 'A' learning personalities who can endure a lot of pain pushing through to achieve knowledge etc... however, pushing through against your own inner psyche is usually a bad idea, you want to gradually go up against it, and use bodily medidations like yoga to work with the Trauma. Sitting in a static position for 6-8 hours and doing intense absorption technics like the OP Article, can be a recipe to set off a bomb in your nervous system. I think a better solution for a lot of people is to see a therapist to talk about mental health (finding a good one is hard in itself), and then add in sustainable exercise routines to stay healthy.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#595

Post by drew_drew »

denton-scratch wrote: post #81

Lapsed Buddhist here. > The Arahat Daniel M. Ingram According to the instruction I received, there have been no arahants since a few decades after the death of the Buddha. Choose your teacher carefully. Many meditation teachers are charlatans; watch out especially for those who claim to be enlightened. > The type of meditation I had been practicing was jhana ...or "dhyana", if you go with the Sanskrit version. The OP…

I acknowledge that there is controversy over Ingram calling himself an Arahat. I think it's a disagreement about the definition. Ingram has been very clear about what he thinks the requirements for being an Arahat are and why he thinks he satisfies those requirements. One could argue that his definition does not meet the requirements of the title.

Regardless of what you think of his definition of an Arahat is, Ingram's book is the best written reference I know for describing the "Deep End" of meditation, and the "Progress of Insight" as it can manifest in practical terms.

The article talks about Willoughby britten and Daniel Ingram as references. Here's a video of them being interviewed together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTLr0gqQTuU&t=2453s

Shinzen Young is a good person to talk to about the "Deep End" of meditation. He doesn't write a lot but here's a video of him talking about the distinction between "Dark Night"/"Dukka Nanas" and mental health issues. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ5B70ac_9M&t=56s

I'm horrified that there are "certified" meditation instructors that don't know this stuff.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#596

Post by denton-scratch »

neonate wrote: post #591
denton-scratch wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I suggest that you not read articles about Buddhist meditation then? Less still the comments? I sort-of supposed that nobody would read these comments if they weren't interested. I avoid articles about pay in the SF area, AI models, Tesla cars, and many other topics. If I read one by accident, I just move on - I don't post a comment whingeing that I'm not interested. I don't belong to an "in-group" here; I used t…

Why did you stop after 40 years? That's a long time, and most people wouldn't.

A number of reasons. FWIW, I was trained in a Tibetan tradition.

- I had from the beginning espoused a non-religious view of Buddhism. About 20 years in, my teacher stated that Buddhism was definitely religious, and that devotional practices like pujas were non-optional. I didn't like it, but if you take on a teacher, it behoves you to at least try to go along with the teaching - which I did.

- I learned some things about Tibetan history that were the opposite of my earlier, naive beliefs. Pre-communist Tibet was not Shangri-La.

- While I never practiced tantra, the tradition was tantric; I eventually learned some important things about tantra that I found unacceptably obnoxious. I can't go into detail, because I don't want to undermine anyone else's commitment to tantra.

- The group that I had been involved with gradually changed, I became an outsider, and things got difficult. Friends in the group cut me off.

- The behaviour of Buddhist nationalists in places like Myanmar and Srilanka towards non-Buddhist minorities appalled me - this was the tipping point.

- I did my back in through long sitting sessions. The amount of my life that I had spent sitting was beginning to look like heavy expenditure for no obvious gain (I wasn't making much progress).

These are my reasons; they don't apply to anyone else, and I don't deprecate Buddhism or Buddhists. I just gradually came to see that I'm no longer one of them.

There is a great deal that I integrated from Buddhism. It remains the basis for my morality, and my world-view is still largely based on Buddhist thought. But I no longer do any kind of formal practice, and I don't identify as a Buddhist.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#597

Post by crazydoggers »

lazide wrote: post #571
crazydoggers wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The brain as an organ analogy doesn't also reflect the self-reflective, self-influencing, learning side of it well. Except it’s not an analogy… it’s literally an organ. Software happens to run on top of it… and when there are bugs in on, we call those functional diseases. But understand that the physical organ and system underlies all if it. If your cpu or memory are broken.. no software or software fixes can fix t…

It’s truly a singularly unique and poorly understood organ which also is the only known organ trying to understand itself - which is my point. Saying ‘it’s just an organ’ dismisses and minimizes all the important parts. And the brain, just like many processors CAN and does work around damaged memory, and can and does work around damaged processors/bugs (depending on the nature and severity of them of course). Phineas…

I pretty much agree with all of this. Buddhism like most things isn’t easily defined as a single set of beliefs for everyone. Lots of Buddhist partake in scientific research in the functioning of the brain. Others, some like the meditation retreat types, focus on pseudoscience and mythology to sell tickets.

Phineas Gage as well as the practice of labotomy definitely shows that the hardware is extremely important. Phineas as well as most lobotomy victims spent the rest of their life as fundamentally different people with enormously different personalities after the damage to their brain. Phineas became extremely volatile and had problems with executive functioning.

> that injury's reported effects on his personality and behavior over the remaining 12 years of his life — effects sufficiently profound that friends saw him (for a time at least) as "no longer Gage" — from Wikipedia

However your point about healing is well taken. Howard Dully who had a lobotomy performed at the age of 12 has managed to recover to a significant degree as his brain has “re-wired” around the damaged areas. It’s believed his young age allowed for the significant recovery.

All that said, my main point which I feel like you’d agree with is that even if the software and hardware of the mind works around and heals itself, it’s not a metaphysical or supernatural process. Understanding the underlying hardware and chemical process, as well as the emergent processes that allows that healing and work-arounds ultimately leads to greater understanding.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#598

Post by stevebmark »

t0mbstone wrote: post #371
stevebmark wrote: post #349

The end goal of mindfulness is to make you realize that you don't exist, and to make you realize you don't have free will, and there is no you. While it's all true, it's not a good place to leave someone without a next step. It can be useful to make people realize that their thoughts aren't their own, which can help with anxiety. Maybe it can also lead to meltdowns like the one in this article if you continue the pra…

I think you might have a misunderstanding about the end goal of mindfulness. There is more than one way to practice mindfulness, but the goal of any mindfulness technique is to achieve a state of alert, focused relaxation by deliberately paying attention to thoughts and sensations without judgment. This allows the mind to refocus on the present moment.

I don't think that's a goal, that's a side effect of realizing you don't exist and have no free will and no agency.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#599

Post by nabla9 »

mapcars wrote: post #108
nabla9 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's overly idealized and wrong view. Meditation together with mental treatment often works really well but they are not direct substitutes. There are meditation therapies that mix the two. What meditation does to the mind is not completely separated from the mental health, but it's not on the same line either. Understanding the nature of your mind heals only minor neuroses, and sometimes with depression. You can b…

So how do you know what is mentally healthy? How do you know those meditation masters were mentally ill?

In the case of Hakuin he said himself he was very ill.

In many other cases the description of "demons" and other things match what is now called psychotic episodes. There is difference with struggling with practice and being unwell.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#600

Post by fsckboy »

denton-scratch wrote: post #583
EdwardDiego wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...I don't really want to hear about your religious beliefs, tbh, I've had a lifetime of it already, and I've decided you're all charlatans. Especially if you unnecessarily revert to jargon when trying to explain your beliefs, you mention "tulku" four times, but define it zero times. This is indicative of in-group signaling.

May I suggest that you not read articles about Buddhist meditation then? Less still the comments? I sort-of supposed that nobody would read these comments if they weren't interested. I avoid articles about pay in the SF area, AI models, Tesla cars, and many other topics. If I read one by accident, I just move on - I don't post a comment whingeing that I'm not interested. I don't belong to an "in-group" here; I used t…

the article is about mindfulness and many Buddhist commenters have said the article is not about Buddhism, it's about a perverted form of meditation, but you're here defending Buddhists hijacking that topic and saying that everybody else should move on... not throwing shade, just sayin.
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