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NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

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Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#581
Reaction of Google’s chief legal officer, David Drummond on the news. Sounds a lot more sincere then their previous denials (which proved to be lies forced by the law anyway).

"We have long been concerned about the possibility of this kind of snooping, which is why we have continued to extend encryption across more and more Google services and links, especially the links in the slide. We do not provide any government, including the U.S. government, with access to our systems. We are outraged at the lengths to which the government seems to have gone to intercept data from our private fiber networks, and it underscores the need for urgent reform." [0]

[0]http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/google...

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a US citizen. Born and bred. And, at this point, I can't in good faith say that I would blame you. I think it's pretty safe to say that getting rid of a President is no longer enough. My sense is that the people who make these policies really are "Beyond Elections". They are constants in our government. And appear unassailable. I doubt very much that we, the American People, could even IDENTIFY the people setting…

No. Sorry. The President does bear full responsibility. That's the nature of the job. If he wants to claim he wasn't aware, OK. But he is now and it's his responsibility to fix it. Again, that's the nature of the job. If the President wanted to eliminate these programs, they'd get eliminated. It would require the exercise of political will, but it absolutely could be done. The problem, actually, is right here, when p…

The problem is that you can hold all the presidents responsible you want and that does not have the power to change this problem.

Congress, perhaps.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#583
post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As for the torture thing : http://strasbourgobservers.com/2010/07/06/389/ Given this article, I think it's safe to say that people get tortured to varying degrees by the German police on a weekly basis at least. Like the US, in the vast majority of cases the police do this for very good reasons. As for a basic introduction to German wiretapping law: https://www.privacyinternational.org/reports/germany/ii-surv... Also…

what about - "the executive gets to spy on anyone on German soil without judicial oversight" - "The BND does not just have the right to spy on anyone, but it can summarily arrest anyone, intervene in any investigation without question" - "Germany and France are transmitting everyone's internet usage to an organisation so it could sue them for copyright infringement in an automated fashion" ? from the link you posted,…

I think you're confusing multiple things here. Guantanamo is not the same category as police torture in Germany by police forces. Guantanamo would be comparable to German soldiers guarding a prison in Afghanistan and arresting people there. Do you really need sources to convince you that German "prisons" in Afghanistan (and maybe other countries) exist and operate independently of both German law (because it isn't German citizens getting locked up) and local law ? I also don't think it very far fetched that the "rights" of prisoners in those prisons are not getting respected at all by (amongst others) German soldiers.

So you should only compare German police using torture Police, FBI or DEA or some department like that using torture inside America on American citizens. There I think it's much, much less clear that the rate of torture in Germany is higher or lower than the rate used by American law enforcement agencies. I'd guess the rate in Germany would be lower, but not that much, simply because America has many more regions where heavy violence against the police happens very often.

As for what the BND does, is it really so hard to find ? http://www.globalresearch.ca/germanys-intelligence-service-b... http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/04/german-... ...

(note that information they forwarded, they obviously collected first, so yes, it does in fact prove the BND spies on all German citizens as part of normal operations)

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#584

Offtopic, but there's a problem on this site with this kind of story now. I'm not sure if it's the flamewar detection, or flagging, or some other automated system, but stories like this which are very popular and not remotely a flamewar, but an interesting discussion, are disappearing off the home page too fast in my opinion. This is a topic that will define a generation's attitude to technology and the internet, and…

I came here and read some comments because I was wondering the same. Previously when something got >1k points, it would stay on the homepage at least a full day. Now it's almost off the front page with ~1.5k points in 22 hours.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What an unbelievably stupid line of thinking. Kidnapped their children? Get a hold of yourself here. Google is a tech company, it is a perfectly reasonable expectation that they get the big parts of their security model right. Not encrypting data going through leased (or even their own) fibers? Big, big mistake. NSA and US government aside, Google dropped the ball big-time here. > Why do I sometimes get the feeling t…

Security is based on threat model. The spooks have capabilities that far exceed the threat models most companies assume from private blackhats. You think it is obvious to assume in hindsight that the government would dig up and tap your dark fiber, but you don't think it obvious the government would plant spies to do in-side-the-data-center taps. Now what? Encrypt all data between switches? The Soviets didn't think t…

what if that government who could tap into fiber was not US government? I think any communication outside the confines of corporate buildings should be encrypted.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#586
post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what about - "the executive gets to spy on anyone on German soil without judicial oversight" - "The BND does not just have the right to spy on anyone, but it can summarily arrest anyone, intervene in any investigation without question" - "Germany and France are transmitting everyone's internet usage to an organisation so it could sue them for copyright infringement in an automated fashion" ? from the link you posted,…

I think you're confusing multiple things here. Guantanamo is not the same category as police torture in Germany by police forces. Guantanamo would be comparable to German soldiers guarding a prison in Afghanistan and arresting people there. Do you really need sources to convince you that German "prisons" in Afghanistan (and maybe other countries) exist and operate independently of both German law (because it isn't Ge…

I don't see a need to ask very simple questions for a third time, so I think we're done here. Your "guesses" don't interest me, as even the sources you posted contradict what you said. As for the BND, see my very first post in this thread. This is groan inducing.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What governments are extending me legal protections?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_jurisdiction#Univers... In general, these are laws against things like war crimes. The UK (Brit here) also extends some child protection, fraud and bribery laws to cover acts worldwide, the former intended to be used to prosecute sex tourists who are unlikely to be prosecuted where they committed the offences. I'm unsure whether any of these laws have actually specifically prot…

Personally I hate whole "war crimes" thing. Since it WW2 it has been applied only to enemies. There was a lot of contention with the Russians over what was a war crime, since Stalin had done many of the same things as Hitler. It was generally agreed that it was only illegal when the Germans did it and Stalin went home happy.

It seems that Universal Jurisdiction allows people to prosecute me, but doesn't specifically protect me.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#588
post #2

It's hard not to come to the conclusion that these activities were essentially criminal. I don't see how the administration can fail to disavow them, investigate them fully, and hold their instigators accountable. It feels like Special Prosecutor time. That aside, let me re-make a point I keep making: Google had no knowledge of NSA's physical compromise of their data centers. But still, they pushed harder than anyone…

What Google knew when, and how Google co operated with the NSA and other agencies is something we will probably never know. Or at least not for a long time.

The first files that came out seemed to speak of direct access for the NSA into the datacenters done with the support of Google.

These speak of even more intrusive surveillance.

Personally I dont believe for a second that Google has not been fully cooperative with the needs of the American Intelligence community all the time. However Google needs a bit of good PR to ensure that they are not hit too hard with a backlash. As long as Google can maintain plausible deniability they are fine.

I dont see anything criminal that the NSA does as far as US law goes, unless they are spying on American citizens (which they are doing).

Spying in any way possible on other countries is not only legal but a bit reason for the existence of NSA, CIA etc. There is an understanding in the international community that spying may occur.

However there is also a long tradition that if someone is caught with their hand in the cookie jar, a harsh response is expected. The expulsion of diplomats, dropping trade deals, dropping mutual agreements (think US/USSR) and so on. Also the criminal persecution and interrogation of enemy agents discovered.

A couple of points to make

1) Europe has so far not really reacted much to the news. Some blabbing in the press, a bit of travel, but aside from that little has changed.

2) the biggest threat over this for Europe is not so much the disposition of troops, where and how bombs are kept etc, its industrial espionage and leverage for getting EU countries to sign deals to buy American. A good recent example is the sale of JSF. The embassies were very heavily involved in ensuring that nations in Europe bought JSF. I find it impossible to think that intelligence gathering was not offered to ensure that this took place.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#589
Why is this on the second page of news right now? Older stories with way fewer points are currently ranked higher. This story is 22 hours old with 1495 points. There are stories with 264 and 305 points that are older but are currently ranked just higher than this story, moving it to the second page of news

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#590
post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are not going to start hating Americans. They have already been hating Americans for hundreds of years. It started with the "degeneracy thesis" in the 18th century, where it had been suggested by European intellectuals that the American climate led to physically inferior animals and humans. The reasons for hating Americans change everyday. Hating a group of people is a completely irrational, unconstructive app…

Yes, you're right, it's racist to oppose NSA spycraft. > They can start by asking nicely. "Can you please kindly, stop perpetuating your morally bankrupt spy-state?" Gosh. That achieved a lot.

Did I say anything about opposing NSA spycraft? Did I say anything about racism, for that matter?

I'm talking about hating Americans. It's irrational, unconstructive, and not a novel thing to do. It's certainly not going to accomplish anything against NSA spycraft.

If anything is going to change about NSA spycraft, especially on behalf of the rights of foreign nationals, having the rest of the world consider all Americans enemies is going to be counterproductive.

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