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Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

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Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#581

Post by vl »

softwaredoug wrote: post #478

So Chinese labs are driving essentially towards commodotized intelligence. Even if its a few months behind the US. Is this a classic 'commoditize my compliment' situation? They want to sell the hardware and infrastructure behind AI and make the software part not the value driver / moat? I can see it. But also even two Chinese labs sinking 100s of millions USD into training isn't exactly commoditization. It's still a…

This is strategy by Chinese government, so much of US economy is invested in AI. Releasing free or cheap versions of the models undermines US economic growth. It’s asymmetric strategy that makes sense if you are close second in AI race. If situation is reversed, US would do the same.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#582

Post by blazespin »

nikcub wrote: post #379
theplumber wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> I pretty sure OpenAI and Anthropic are doing the same or worse. No they're not. It would end both companies if they were ever found to be doing that. Their terms are clear - if you use the coding plans they can[0] train in return. Enterprise and API, absolutely not. The argument here is that with the Chinese labs you have zero legal recourse. [0] opt-in, thanks

Are there terms clear? I dunno. There are ways to train on API usage without training on API usage.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#583

Post by girvo »

nikcub wrote: post #379
theplumber wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> I pretty sure OpenAI and Anthropic are doing the same or worse. No they're not. It would end both companies if they were ever found to be doing that. Their terms are clear - if you use the coding plans they can[0] train in return. Enterprise and API, absolutely not. The argument here is that with the Chinese labs you have zero legal recourse. [0] opt-in, thanks

If that was completely the whole story, then the extra Zero Retention etc tier enterprise things wouldn’t exist

I also don’t trust them lol

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#584

Post by vl »

frabcus wrote: post #491
softwaredoug wrote: post #478

So Chinese labs are driving essentially towards commodotized intelligence. Even if its a few months behind the US. Is this a classic 'commoditize my compliment' situation? They want to sell the hardware and infrastructure behind AI and make the software part not the value driver / moat? I can see it. But also even two Chinese labs sinking 100s of millions USD into training isn't exactly commoditization. It's still a…

Umm, Fable only really came out 2 weeks ago, and GPT-5.6 Sol only 1 week ago. Yes, Kimi K3 appears a touch below them both, but above all other models. So I'd say a few weeks behind, not months now...

Frontier labs release frontier models to the public only if there is market pressure to do so. Anthropic is not even hiding that they have been using Mythos internally for months now.

I wouldn’t be surprised if OpenAI (so much for “open”) is using GPT-6 internally already.

It appears that peasants like us are not going to get access to frontier AI anymore at any price.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#586

Post by artemisart »

benjiro29 wrote: post #574
simonw wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrote this up in a bit more detail on my blog, including some thoughts on what value the pelican benchmark can still provide here: https://simonwillison.net/2026/Jul/16/kimi-k3/

In regards to your post and the 16k reasoning output. Try setting reasoning levels yourself manually. We see in the benchmarks that one of the graphs shows low, mid, max, so its clearly there. I had the same issue with GLM 5.2 only offering high/max. By playing around with openai compatible protocol, and setting the reasoning level from none, low ... high, xhigh and testing a flawed logic test. It was easy to see tha…

Official API doc says only max effort level is currently supported. https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/guide/kimi-k3-quickstart#think...

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#587

Post by Wowfunhappy »

walrus01 wrote: post #576
simonw wrote: post #111

Pelican: https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer#url=ht... - rendered via the OpenRouter API: https://openrouter.ai/moonshotai/kimi-k3 95 input, 16,658 output = 25 cents! https://www.llm-prices.com/#it=95&ot=16658&ic=3&oc=15 (13,241 of those were reasoning tokens.) I think that's the most expensive pelican I've rendered through a Chinese model so far.

I'm still waiting for the day that one of these models interprets the request weird and outputs an SVG of a Pelican case. https://canada.newark.com/productimages/large/en_US/4492516.... In the field I work in, if someone says "Pelican", 99.99% of the time it's going to be an equipment case. We never have reason or need to refer to the actual bird.

Given that a camera case obviously cannot ride a bicycle, this would clearly and indisputably be an incorrect interpretation of the request.

I mean, okay, a bird also cannot ride a bicycle, but at least it is alive, has feet, etc.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#589

Post by k33P1Tr3aL »

api wrote: post #415
lukebechtel wrote: post #386

> Chip Design > As an early proof of concept, Kimi K3 designed a chip to serve a nano model built on its own architecture. In a single 48-hour autonomous run, K3 built, optimized, and verified the chip using open-source EDA tools on the Nangate 45nm library. Within 4 mm², the chip closes timing at 100 MHz and sustains over 8,700 tokens/s decode throughput in simulation, packing 1.46M standard cells, 0.277 MB of SRAM,…

I had a thought a while back: sell large local models burned onto fused compute / ROM chips. Like cartridges for old game consoles. Slot (or probably plug into USB-C) and go. It’s an ASIC with the model wired into it so it’s very low power and fast. I’d buy these. Say $100 for a frontier class model. Maybe more.

isn't this essentially an FPGA?

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#590

Post by tedsanders »

theplumber wrote: post #375
dovin wrote: post #330

Just in case you were thinking of signing up directly with Moonshot to use the service, they appear to train even on API use: > We may use Content to provide, maintain, develop, support, and improve the Services, comply with applicable law, enforce our terms and policies, and keep the Services safe and secure. Customer who requires restrictions on the use of Customer Content for training or improving Moonshot AI mode…

[flagged]

I work at OpenAI and I can assure you that if we say we don't train on your data, we don't.

I acknowledge that if you don't trust OpenAI, then you may not trust me either. But lying about this would be bad for legal liability, customer retention, and employee retention. Even if you model us as evil (and we really aren't), it's still not obvious to me that it would be a good decision to lie. As soon as a whistleblower revealed the scam, it would tank revenue and employee morale.

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