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“No tax on tips” is an industry plant

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Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#581

Post by Aloisius »

kelnos wrote: post #217
Aloisius wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in California and this isn't true here. All restaurant workers receive at least minimum wage before tips. In my city, that's $19/hour with health insurance. Of course, you're still expected to leave a tip and suggested minimum is now 20%, plus even McDonalds is charging $15 for a 4 oz burger, so I rarely go out to eat at places that expect a tip anymore. I'm not sure why they specifically should be tax exempt…

I'm happy that CA doesn't set a lower min wage for tipped workers, but the problem is that in many/most places in CA, $19/hr is still not a living wage, so the tips are more or less required to keep those workers housed and eating. A living wage in most population centers in CA is nearly $30/hr.

People argued the living wage was $15/hour in California a few years ago. Then it was $20/hour. Now you're saying $30/hour.

I have to ask what is causing what's considered a living wage to increase so rapidly, because it appears to be increasing far faster than the national inflation rate.

It sounds like a wage-price spiral, though I'm not aware of anyone claiming we're in one.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#582

Post by bsder »

kelnos wrote: post #230
bsder wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But today, who's getting tips in cash? Every server who waits on me. I make it a point to carry cash and tip the waitstaff in cash even if I pay the bill on my credit card. 1) Tips on credit cards are a "dark pattern" meant to increase the house rake of the credit card handling companies. 2) Tips on credit cards are controlled by the owner and often never make it to the waitstaff. I can short circuit this by giving…

Sure, but I think you have to admit that tips have been moving more and more to credit cards, and fewer and fewer people tip with cash. You can keep doing what you do (and good on you for doing it), but at least acknowledge that the norm has been shifting for a while now.

> at least acknowledge that the norm has been shifting for a while now.

Sure. I agree it has been shifting, but mostly out of people simply not paying attention.

However, it's pretty easy to get it to switch. I have converted probably about 20% of my friends to doing cash tips simply by pointing out a single time that credit card tips have a significant chance of not making it to the server.

I haven't even pulled out the "credit card tips are a scam to increase the rake" angle, yet.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#583

Post by lazide »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #577
lazide wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, one does handle your food before you eat it - and before you’ve seen it.

Love the idea that threatening people into giving you a tax exempt handout is anything other than a mafia move

Oh it’s not a threat, it’s the implication.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#584

Post by lotsoweiners »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #533
smelendez wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think tips in many places are slowly converging into something like a 20% commission paid by the consumer, thanks to restaurants including a suggested tip on the screen or receipt, and bars automatically charging a 20% tip if you don't explicitly close your tab. I hadn't thought of this before, but keeping tips as formally selected and paid for by the consumer may help the restaurant with liability issues where alc…

I've just stopped eating out because of this. Wonder how many people have. I don't want to be made to feel awkward at what is supposed to be an enjoyable experience for me. I especially don't want to be made to feel that way to manipulate money from me.

I used to hate those suggested tip things too. Now I got over my caring and just tip what I think appropriate. I mean when the restaurant sets the default to 25% or 30% that tells me they have no shame so neither should I.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#585

Post by lotsoweiners »

edmundsauto wrote: post #483
amosslade wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>creates inequality Did you mean that it rewards them for their efforts?

For food service, specifically waiting tables - how much of the tip is because of effort and better service - and how much is due to the attractiveness and general demographic characteristics of the server?

I personally top out at 20% no matter what. If the service is lousy I’ll go lower. When servers/bartenders are comping me then I know they get it and will up my percentage.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#586

Post by lotsoweiners »

hshdhdhj4444 wrote: post #513

Fascinating how America’s response to people being sick of having to tip on everything, tips being little more than a tax on generosity, was to make this most hated form of remuneration even more advantageous.

Since this was passed I just decided to reduce my standard tips from 20% back down to 15%. Figure it works itself out that way.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#587

Post by reissbaker »

micromacrofoot wrote: post #543
amosslade wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good servers are treated well and make good money.

This is nonsense for most jobs, and it's nonsense here too. Very rarely are any jobs treated on pure merit of good vs bad performance. Ultimately it ends up being mostly the luck of having reasonable management and good opportunities. Reasonable management is very hard to come by in the restaurant industry. And either way, if you wanted to believe the merit-based approach, you're talking maybe the top 5% of servers a…

You can just look this up, it's not a secret. Median total pay, including tips, in the US is $32k for waiters. In France, it's €22k. The UK is £23k. Even factoring in health insurance costs — ~4.5k/year for an Obamacare plan — waiters make more in America.

Waiters in the US make significantly more than their British and French counterparts, due to tipping: the US minimum wage is lower than the British and French minimum wages, and despite American waiters being paid at an even lower hourly rate than the US minimum wage, they end up making more due to tips, performing the same job.

The upper 25% of waiters in the US make over $40k a year. Your 95% estimate is very off base.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#588

Post by maxbond »

maxbond wrote: post #482
happymellon wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When visiting the States I have observed on a couple of occasions where a customer shouted at staff and used the threat of withholding a tip as leverage to be unreasonably nasty to wait staff. The service industry in the US is awful, and the tipping culture is really toxic. I don't understand those that defend the American approach.

To be clear, I don't defend it. I'm mildly against it. Unfortunately I don't in it's at the root of entitled customer behavior in the States, I think there's a deeper cultural contempt for service workers. You'll see similar behavior towards workers who aren't tipped but who provide some sort of face-to-face service, like cashiers and teachers.

Something that has occurred to me is that I have sometimes been that asshole entitled customer, and as I've matured I've learned to remove myself from a situation when I feel the urge to yell at a service worker.

It has never been about the money really. The only exception I remember was when I was upset about the way my bank processed my paycheck and yelled about it in my early 20s (my bad, I didn't know how depositing checks at an ATM worked but I ought to have). But usually it's because I felt insecure or disrespected in some way (which wasn't, to my memory, reasonable. It wasn't what the kids call a "valid crash out".).

For instance, it really gets under my skin when I am talking to technical support on the phone and they try to blame the problem on my running Linux. Argh! If it was Linux I wouldn't need their help! I'd either fix it on my own or ask some help forum.

I don't know how much that translates to the larger phenomenon, I'm not even talking about face-to-face interactions anymore, but that's my two cents.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#589

Post by exe34 »

tarentel wrote: post #410
fireflash38 wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that then stealing from the owner? I just don't think of a way you can have tipping and it not create perverse incentives like that.

It's likely not like this everywhere but I've become a regular at a few places over my life time and asked about this. At least where I've been, it is actually all tracked. Generally, at least at bars, the people coming in and tipping well, are people who come in often and spend a lot to begin with so over the long run they end up making it back anyway. And honestly, when you're new to a city/place and don't have a l…

> so over the long run they end up making it back anyway

Yeah, they lose on the unit, but they make it back on the volume!

How are you both new to a city/place and they already know your name/usual before you've even tipped? Do they send runners out ahead with the information?

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#590

Post by exe34 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #555
kergonath wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what works even better? Being a friendly and nice person. It has the added bonus that when they greet you and "treat you better" (whatever you mean by that) next time you’ll know it’s not just because of your wallet.

> You know what works even better? Being a friendly and nice person I do both. And I don’t always leave a large tip. If I’m having a good quarter or year, I’ll share it. If I’m not, I can’t. At the end of the day, they’re running a business and I’m a customer. If we’re friends I’ll buy them dinner (and they’ll comp random stuff).

> and they’ll comp random stuff

You should send a thank you note to the owner!

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