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U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

washingtonpost.com

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Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#581

Post by GeekyBear »

Lio wrote: post #273

I don't think the UK government would try to put Apple out of business if they don't comply it's more likely that they would just get heavily fined until they do so. The most likely outcome, I would guess, is that Apple just stop offering Advanced Data Protection as a service in the UK rather than create some kind of backdoor. It's a weak proposition from the government because anyone with something to hide will just…

> The most likely outcome, I would guess, is that Apple just stop offering Advanced Data Protection as a service in the UK

Agreed.

> Apple previously made its stance public when it formally opposed the UK government's power to issue Technical Capability Notices in testimony submitted in March 2024 and warned that it would withdraw security features from the UK market if forced to comply.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/02/uk-demands-apple...

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#582

Post by kypro »

tim333 wrote: post #306
Chance-Device wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the way that the UK has passed laws for a while now, make them so broad that they potentially criminalise everyone, then selectively prosecute. This is a very obvious setup for future totalitarianism. I’m surprised that the British public stands for it, but I guess they must not care.

Brit here. Yeah from my experience people don't care. Hardly anyone gets prosecuted and those who do have often done something bad. Most day to day complaints are they don't prosecute enough, often related to the bastard that snatched your phone. We have approximately zero people sitting in jail for failing to decrypt and similar. >This is a very obvious setup for future totalitarianism. No it really isn't. If they a…

Brit here.

> Hardly anyone gets prosecuted and those who do have often done something bad.

Perhaps often they've done something bad, but sometimes they haven't, that's the point. Obviously this is wrong and you shouldn't be so passive about it.

> If they are planning a totalitarian takeover they are being very sneaky about it. There is a strong anti totalitarianism tradition here including elections since 1265, writing books like 1984 and bombing nazis.

I'd argue people in the UK today like to adopt the label of being anti-authoritarian and anti-totalitarian, but in reality most people here, including our politicians, quite like authoritarianism.

For example, people here often argue things like "I support free speech, but obviously insulting someone for their identity is wrong". So in the UK we apparently have free speech and I can apparently criticise religious people, but at the same time just this week someone in the UK was arrested for burning a bible.

You see this hypocrisy constantly in the UK... "I'm not an authoritarian, but smoking is bad". "I'm not an authoritarian, but you can't be saying that". "I'm not an authoritarian, but if you're worried about mass surveillance you probably have something to hide". "I"m not authoritarian, but you can't just let people have private data on an encrypted device which the government can't access".

The UK is very authoritarian these days, but unlike other parts of the world people here deny it while arguing in favour of more of it.

There's nothing necessarily wrong with being authoritarian and wanting the government to have more control either. Clearly many countries find this type of government appealing, but lets at least be honest about it. We don't want kids on social media. We don't want people smoking. We don't want people being about to call people names on Twitter. We don't want people burning religious texts. We don't want people being free from government surveillance.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#583

Post by flanked-evergl »

gambiting wrote: post #268
flanked-evergl wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Can you give any example of this "preferential treatment" that people who aren't UK citizens supposedly receive?

(Cops doxx a man who burned the Koran) Manchester Police name Quran-burning suspect despite threat to life

https://freespeechunion.org/manchester-police-name-quran-bur...

Muslim abuser who 'didn't know' that sex with a girl of 13 was illegal is spared jail

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2268395/Adil-Rashid...

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#584

Post by GeekyBear »

switch007 wrote: post #578
GeekyBear wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is what Apple publicly said they would do if the UK attempted this. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-66256081

Well that's just negotiation and PR. That's why I asked about previous examples - judge them by what they do, not say Guess we'll have to see what happens in a few months

It' s also what they testified they would do.

>Apple previously made its stance public when it formally opposed the UK government's power to issue Technical Capability Notices in testimony submitted in March 2024 and warned that it would withdraw security features from the UK market if forced to comply.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/02/uk-demands-apple...

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#585

Post by talldayo »

ninalanyon wrote: post #342

Surely any moderately sophisticated group of criminals can simply create there own end to end encryption apps. So even if the UK, or other governments, get there own way they will only et to see the content related to the less competent criminals. Perhaps it's still worth it to some.

Surely they can make their own apps, but whether or not Apple will let them install it has always been a point of contention.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#586

Post by fauigerzigerk »

JusticeJuice wrote: post #560
TechnicalVault wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It creates a nasty precedent doesn't it? If Apple can provide the UK government with foreign data, what's to stop Russia or China making them provide data on UK minister's phones, or more likely dissidents in exile? I can't see on what basis the government thinks they're going to get to be exceptional here?

There are tangentially similar precedents already, such as the American FACTA law. It is obviously a quite different context, as it just relates to financial information, not all information - but it's a law from the US government, that demands foreign companies send information back to the US. The wild thing is that foreign companies actually do it. To avoid annoying the US, a lot of other governments ensure that th…

The key difference being that it is perfectly legal for the US to request data on income and gains received by US taxpayers while it is illegal for the US to spy (in certain ways) on US residents.

It is completely routine for countries to exchange data on financial accounts [1]. The only aspect that makes FATCA somewhat unusual is that the US taxes US persons even when they are residents of other countries.

[1] https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/international-excha...

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#587

Post by reverendsteveii »

nozzlegear wrote: post #554
reverendsteveii wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to have a sound legal theory that will hold up in court. You just have to have a sound bite that you can vomit up when someone says "Wait a minute, isn't that blatantly illegal?"

> You don't have to have a sound legal theory that will hold up in court. What? Why? The natural continuation of "Wait a minute, isn't that blatantly illegal?" is "We're going to sue you to make you stop."

"We're going to sue you to make you stop" is exactly where you deploy the semilegal sound bite. You then use that as the public justification to stall, deny, countersue, delay, appeal, defend, depose and do everything you can to avoid a decision happening one way or the other until you've already gotten and done what you wanted to get and do.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#588

Post by trinix912 »

gsk22 wrote: post #549
smodo wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you mean? Who upholds those codified freedoms? Many democratic countries have similar fundamental laws that are explicitly hard to change or bypass. In the end though all rules are either enforced by some authority or they are mere suggestions. The USA doesn’t seem like a special case to me?

> Many democratic countries have similar fundamental laws that are explicitly hard to change or bypass. What exactly constitutes "hard to change"? In many countries, fundamental freedoms are regular legislation which can be overturned in the usual manner. Even a threshold of 2/3 or 3/4 to change is much easier to overcome than the federated constitutional amendment process in the US.

There are also countries that have a constitution that cannot be overturned like a regular legislation. It's not like the US is the only place that has it that way.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#589

Post by Miraste »

JusticeJuice wrote: post #560
TechnicalVault wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It creates a nasty precedent doesn't it? If Apple can provide the UK government with foreign data, what's to stop Russia or China making them provide data on UK minister's phones, or more likely dissidents in exile? I can't see on what basis the government thinks they're going to get to be exceptional here?

There are tangentially similar precedents already, such as the American FACTA law. It is obviously a quite different context, as it just relates to financial information, not all information - but it's a law from the US government, that demands foreign companies send information back to the US. The wild thing is that foreign companies actually do it. To avoid annoying the US, a lot of other governments ensure that th…

The US can get away with this through its immense power and economic influence (for the moment, at least). The UK is a small market of middling relevance, and their government's belief that they're a global power is an anachronism. I hope these decisions cause enough companies to break ties that they're forced to realize their position.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#590

Post by jajko »

madeofpalk wrote: post #274
tacomagick wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As far as we know" is the most important part.

It seems apparent to me that Apple leaked this information to US press in an attempt to get the UK to back off. Wouldn't Apple also try to subvert the attempt for US intelligence to get a backdoor? Or do we think Apple has less of a leg to stand on with US and would be more likely to roll over?

I can't imagine all cloud providers weren't leaned on heavily to provide this access long time ago. Its a treasure trove too juicy to be ignored. Pro quid pro of course.

Anything else is highly illogical or outright stupid, imagine CIA or NSA having meeting on this decade and a half ago and deciding 'well if they won't give us full access when we asked nicely I guess that's it, we have to respect the law and their wish'. LOL. They don't respect basic human rights at all if you don't hold US passport, and even then the list of cases breaking laws and constitution is endless.

Apple is good with their PR, but why do folks accept their every word literally and not as part of marketing spin to sell more services is beyond me. Rest of the market is not even trying to spin it that way which is actually more respectable behavior.

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