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House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

nytimes.com

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Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#581

Post by cboswel1 »

segasaturn wrote: post #423
corytheboyd wrote: post #323

This is going to be a shit show. I don’t even really know where I stand. On one hand, we have to acknowledge that an adversarial government has massively succeeded in installing a botnet in our population— even if that wasn’t the initial intent of ByteDance, it’s effectively true now. On the other hand, you can’t stop people from installing spyware, donating money to fraudster politicians, surrendering themselves to…

Why is it worse for me to have Tiktok installed on my phone than Google Chrome or Facebook?

For the average citizen, probably not, but imagine you are a celebrity, politician, government contractor, tech CEO/employee with access to IP. It's not that difficult to hash out someone's algorithm to get enough of a psychological profile on the person to initiate a detailed social engineering campaign.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#582

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

Leary wrote: post #396
corytheboyd wrote: post #323

This is going to be a shit show. I don’t even really know where I stand. On one hand, we have to acknowledge that an adversarial government has massively succeeded in installing a botnet in our population— even if that wasn’t the initial intent of ByteDance, it’s effectively true now. On the other hand, you can’t stop people from installing spyware, donating money to fraudster politicians, surrendering themselves to…

It’s going to pass Congress, signed into law. Then a federal judge will issue a preliminary injunction blocking it on first amendment grounds just like what happened both times with the Montana ban in 2023 and trumps executive order in 2020

Why are pre-existing rules around foreign ownership of media not tossed by a judge then?

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#583

Post by bugglebeetle »

aydyn wrote: post #577
bugglebeetle wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you honestly believed this to be true, you would be arguing for a ban on all social media, as like half of Instagram is just reposts of TikTok content and is otherwise mind-numbingly equivalent to the service.

False equivalence. You're essentially equating caffeine with cocaine. Not being the target audience, you're likely naive to the extent of harm enabled by tiktok.

And you’ve lost all perspective by hopping on the bandwagon of a xenophobic moral panic. There is zero difference between Instagram Reels and TikTok garbage.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#584

Post by felixgallo »

zachmu wrote: post #530
jrockway wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we should "lowest common denominator" to oppressive regimes. Our Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." TikTok, at the end of the day, is just a kind of…

Tiktok isn't "some website", it is partially owned and controlled by the CCP, which influences what content gets shown to Americans. A majority of zoomers get most of their news and information primarily from this platform, which again is under the influence of a hostile foreign government. (TikTok also spies on US citizens for the CCP, but let's keep this restricted to the free speech argument about the ban). We act…

would the same argument apply to Fox News? If not, why not?

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#585

Post by cryptonector »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #575
karaterobot wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know whether the first amendment is meant to stop this kind of regulation, but I suppose that's one the courts have either settled already, or will get a chance to settle. I would guess that a foreign company's right to either operate a business in the U.S., or service U.S. citizens from a foreign country, is treated differently when it comes to first amendment protections compared to say a domestic business…

Lamont v Postmaster General will likely come up if this bill passes. It concerned Americans receiving foreign propaganda in the mail and the Postal Service attempting to stop this distribution.

That case found that you couldn't make a U.S. Person opt-in to receiving foreign propaganda, and for fairly obvious reasons I think.

This case wouldn't have that problem.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#586

Post by p_j_w »

daveguy wrote: post #557
bjourne wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word "reciprocity" cannot hide the fact that two wrongs doesn't make a right. We think it is wrong of China to censor Facebook and Twitter because that is what authoritarian regimes that don't give a shit about free speech do. For exactly the same reason it is wrong of the US to ban TikTok. And this bill has nothing to do with balancing international trade. It's stated purpose is to restrict China's ability to in…

China is not a US citizen.

The constitution is explicit when it carves out exemptions for citizens and non citizens. The first amendment is not one of them.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#587

Post by frumper »

zaphar wrote: post #563
SteveNuts wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like we're just going to be playing whack-a-mole with the next thing that pops up (perhaps an even more nefarious or nebulously owned app). Why would we not create better data privacy laws and/or ban the sale/transfer of PII to enemy countries if that's the problem we're trying to solve?

Because that is not the really the whole problem we are trying to solve. At root of the TikTok problem is the fact that a nation like China is not playing on a level playing field in our Free Market. A free market works when all the participants are playing on a level playing field. TikTok is not because China as a country does not believe or follow free market principles. As such to further their national goals they…

This bill doesn't even address that. If you want to ban Chinese owned companies because they ban ours, then present that. This is 1 company being targeted, with the potential for maybe some more later. That leaves all the rest operating as normal.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#588

Post by cryptonector »

Miner49er wrote: post #422
karaterobot wrote: post #346

The arguments I can think of for why you wouldn't support restricting social media owned by foreign adversaries: * You don't believe social media companies can become literal or de facto extensions of the countries they are located in. * You don't believe social media can influence people's beliefs and behaviors. * You believe the above, but think a government cannot (or should not) regulate companies operating in it…

Yeah, you're missing that it's most likely unconstitutional, because it violates the First amendment. Also related, but somewhat separate, is just that people should have freedom to information.

That's not clear. Does the First Amendment protect non-U.S. persons' right to speak and publish?

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#589

Post by kurthr »

bjourne wrote: post #504
codekaze wrote: post #213

I think the primary argument for banning TikTok should be based on reciprocity rather than moral and/or security concerns. We can make similar arguments about the negative effects of Facebook, Instagram, and etc. even from the POVs of other countries, but the key issue here is that China heavily restricts foreign apps and services from operating in their market. If China is unwilling to allow US companies to compete…

The word "reciprocity" cannot hide the fact that two wrongs doesn't make a right. We think it is wrong of China to censor Facebook and Twitter because that is what authoritarian regimes that don't give a shit about free speech do. For exactly the same reason it is wrong of the US to ban TikTok. And this bill has nothing to do with balancing international trade. It's stated purpose is to restrict China's ability to in…

What's wrong? The glorious right to investment profits? It's not even censorship.

The 1st amendment right to free speech is about US citizens. This isn't even a US corporation. No 1st amendment there so it looks legal. They probably wouldn't have done anything, if the manipulation and spying had been a bit less blatant. Even Telegram and Kaspersky still operate. This isn't even a WTO trade issue since almost every single tech or manufacturing company (except Tesla?) that wants to sell in China has to be a joint owned venture. It's classic mercantilism and there's no international obligation to buy stuff or allow it's import (see fentanyl). Even TikTok isn't allowed there, VPNs are not just banned, but considered tools of terrorism. Tit for tat is a thing, this has been coming for a decade (only slowed by corporate profits and cheap labor), and the slope isn't very slippery.

Still might not happen, if Kellyanne has anything to say to Trump about it.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#590

Post by segasaturn »

hparadiz wrote: post #519
segasaturn wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it a mistake for TikTok to ask Americans to participate in their representative democracy? Do we not remember when Google and Facebook blacked out their sites to stop SOPA from passing, how is TikTok's notification any different?

The whole reason this is even happening is because they've been caught pushing political content that is blatantly either pro-China or meant to stir shit up in the American population. The irony with your comment is that TikTok's masters in China already have the same power that SOPA was supposed to grant the US government. In other words the USA is trying to strip the CCP of that power. They could've played ball and…

> The irony with your comment is that TikTok's masters in China already have the same power that SOPA was supposed to grant the US government

Yes, the power of democracy. People spoke up and prevented a harmful law from being passed - why is TikTok exercising that right, in the same way as Google and Facebook, a problem? It sounds like you want the US to become like the CCP instead of vice versa.

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