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Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

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Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#581

Post by [deleted] »

tomschlick wrote: post #208
coldpie wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google needs to be broken up. To make it explicit: the only way this happens is by Americans voting for it. The FTC has been more active on anti-trust issues in the past two years than at any time in the past 30. That's a direct result of the 2020 election. Elections matter.

The FTC isn't going to do anything as Google/Alphabet is a big donor to the Democrats. https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/alphabet-inc/recipients?id=... Here is them lobbying specifically around antitrust reform legislation: https://www.opensecrets.org/federal-lobbying/bills/specific_...

[deleted]

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#582

Post by VancouverMan »

ricree wrote: post #199
unmole wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what happens when website owners decide supporting Firefox is not worth it?

It would be much less likely if we could get the market share back to 2010 levels. Is that a realistic goal? I don't know, maybe not, but it seems like there's little will even in tech to try. There was a time when tech was the biggest driver of alternate browser adoption, and even managed to make serious inroads into the mainstream. It's a huge shame that this attitude seems long gone.

> There was a time when tech was the biggest driver of alternate browser adoption, and even managed to make serious inroads into the mainstream. It's a huge shame that this attitude seems long gone.

I think that was just a side effect of browsers like Phoenix/Firebird/Firefox and Opera offering numerous tangible benefits over IE and the other browsers of that era.

They offered things like better functionality, better security, better extensibility, better performance, better ad blocking, and so on.

There were many compelling reasons to switch to them, and many compelling reasons to suggest them to others.

I could easily show less-technical users how those browsers could make their lives better in many ways.

For a while now, though, that just hasn't been the case. Using Firefox today, for example, doesn't really leave most people any better off, but it does come with its own set of new problems. I can't bring myself to recommend it.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#583

Post by mozball »

mardifoufs wrote: post #264
mozball wrote: post #26

If this isn't the straw that breaks the camel's back, there is never going to be one. Google needs to be broken up. They own the browser market. They own the web (through Adwords). They own Search. They own mobile. They own most of the video sharing market with 2.5 billion monthly annual users. They own a good chunk of email with 1.2 billion monthly annual users. They have amassed an incomprehensible amount of power…

Why should the US break up an asset like Google? Would be completely self defeating. This isn't like standard oil or at&t, that mostly had influence and market share inside the US. It would basically be handing power to foreign competitors who would pounce at the opportunity And I'm not American so it's not even some sort of patriotic comment. If Europe , or anywhere else, had a Google sized Behemoth, they wouldn't m…

In which case foreign governments, the EU and the like who collectively represent the interests of the other 7+ billion people, should start levying taxes, penalties and fines on Google and haul it and the US in front of international agencies like the WTO for unfair trade practices.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#584

Post by dvngnt_ »

sir_brickalot wrote: post #557
mordae wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To put it simple, it makes it possible for service provider to reject providing service to clients not running corporate-owned white-listed clients. Thus making it virtually impossible to create independent clients for such services. It will be swiftly adopted by well meaning but clueless bank and government clerks who will accidentally use to lock all open hardware, open operating system, open browser users out and…

Isn't this already the reality in the mobile space? I own a rooted Samsung device and have to jump through 100 hoops to be able to use my banking app or Netflix or some rando game (which I don't actually play). SafetyNet broken, hardware fuse blown, Magisk Hide + some other havks just to still be able to do online banking. I just want to be able to ssh into my own device or install a real ad blocker, like Adaway with…

it is the reality for mobile.

on iphone you can't even install software that apple doesn't explicitly allow.

they would love to extend this to all computing devices to remove control

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#585

Post by ivanstojic »

devsda wrote: post #397

There are many arguments against this but not many brought the implications for search engines. If websites implement this, it will effectively make building a web search engine impossible for new entrants. The current players can whitelist/attest their own clients while categorizing every other scraping clients as bots. If not for other reasons, I can't see how Google a search company can be allowed to push somethin…

How would this work against scrapers that are based on driven anpproved browser instances, eg. something like Selenium?

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#586

Post by OfSanguineFire »

YPCrumble wrote: post #337
loeg wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not great if your bank arbitrarily decides Linux isn't a supported operating system, for example.

Wouldn’t this just mean I should change my bank?

There are already countries where all banks in the country (and often it is a mere handful; not everywhere is like the USA with a big choice of banks) already require e.g. using their app on an Android version that passes SafetyNet, in order to log in to online banking.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#587

Post by kalleboo »

nvm0n1 wrote: post #574
kalleboo wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's double-think, it's just a lack of consequential thinking. I believe the writers of the spec when they say that they just want to be able to see which ad views are real or not. They even lay out some (far too weak) ideas to keep the system from being mandatory and abusable. But they don't realize just how quickly things will go out of hand once the rest of the organization realizes what they have cr…

[flagged]

You're not wrong.

The real problem here seems to be giving one single company too much unchecked power rather than the individual proposal itself.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#588

Post by smashah »

c0l0 wrote: post #5

I feel like I have to repeat this, since so much is at stake here, where it is about the preservation of the web as we know it today, at the peril of having it turned into yet another walled garden: The only way around the dystopia this will lead to is to constantly and relentlessly shame and even harass all those involved in helping create it. The scolding in the issue tracker of that wretched "project" shall flow l…

Oh but that would be against the respective projects' code of conduct. /s

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#589

Post by jjoonathan »

shadowgovt wrote: post #502
jjoonathan wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oof. It does check, though, that the guy CoC-blocking all the github comments would have blog posts like the Professor Umbridge of the W3C.

I think people like to take the easy way out of declaring those with a different mindset "evil." Everyone is the hero of their own story, and honestly there are multiple incompatible-but-internally-consistent models of how technologies can and should work. I think it's more useful to recognize these things than to write off a competing mindset (especially when the competing mindset is in a position of power). Conside…

> Consider incentives from Google's standpoint.

Google sells ads. They want to kill ad blockers. This is how.

> Weiss's viewpoint is completely reasonable

Chasing diversions around in circles is not neutral. Someone wins by default. Diversions exist and they exist to tempt you into poor attention allocation decisions. This is not about safety, security, and providing an excellent experience. It's about ads and making sure you can't stop them.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#590

Post by nologic01 »

mozball wrote: post #26

If this isn't the straw that breaks the camel's back, there is never going to be one. Google needs to be broken up. They own the browser market. They own the web (through Adwords). They own Search. They own mobile. They own most of the video sharing market with 2.5 billion monthly annual users. They own a good chunk of email with 1.2 billion monthly annual users. They have amassed an incomprehensible amount of power…

> Google needs to be broken up.

Not going to happen. Rationally there should be broad political consensus about cutting Google back to size: from rabid libertarians worshiping the miraculous abundance generated by "competition and free markets" to bleeding-heart socialists keen on pushing back corporate power as the root of all evil.

Alas, these political categories no longer have any meaning. The US political system has mutated into something else (the messenger being a horned man) which will probably require some time to properly characterize and name using terminology that is appropriate to use in good company.

So the fate of Google will be more shaped by actions of external entities than as part of US regulatory efforts. Powerful countries that antagonize the US are simply degoogling and creating their own copycat panopticons.

The question is what will be the course of action of powerful countries that are alies of the US (i.e. Europe and a few others). Will they accept that their digital society will be feudal in nature because the broken US political system cannot deliver on even basic responsibilities?

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