Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs • Hacker News Board

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#581

Post by mkozlows » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 10:14 PM UTC

meragrin_ wrote: post #504

sangnoir wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems like it’s happening without government intervention The federal government has definitely "intervened" by incentivizing interoperability through a $7.5B carrot[1] for interoperable charging networks. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36408329

So why is everyone fleeing the North American standards J1772/CCS1 in favor of Tesla's? What do these car companies stand to gain switching the charging port? They don't own charging networks.

While there is a lot of activity going on to build CCS chargers, the current state of the CCS charging network is not great. This is a competitive advantage for Tesla.

So GM and Ford wanted to sign deals to use Tesla's charger network to remove a competitive advantage that Tesla had. Tesla apparently agreed to that, but one condition is that GM and Ford had to agree to switch future vehicles over to Tesla's previously-proprietary (and still Tesla-controlled) "NACS" standards instead of CCS. GM and Ford agreed. Rivian appears to have followed suit after GM and Ford agreed.

Other automakers are now evaluating the landscape to see where things will fall. The best alternative was always going to be that we had a unified CCS standard future, but now that GM/Ford have made that impossible, they may decide that it's better to get some leverage by unifying on NACS rather than having a split-standard future.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#582

Post by mkozlows » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 10:16 PM UTC

Server6 wrote: post #479

mkozlows wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did. It was CCS. Everyone except Tesla was on board to using it, and it was widely viewed as the standard going forward, and even Tesla was retro-fitting its chargers with CCS ("Magic Dock"), and presumably would one day switch its cars over. Then Tesla pulled a fast one on the morons at GM and Ford, who signed stupid deals that handed the future back to Tesla, and now the only question is whether Tesla consolid…

The problem is that CCS is objectively bad and way worse than NACS. I suggest watching Sandy Munro's analysis on it.

This is what Tesla fans say, but the actual reasons they give are weak.

The advantages of CCS: It supports 800V today, it supports V2L/V2H/V2G today.

The advantages of NACS: It's smaller, which nobody cares about except Tesla fans.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#583

Post by mkozlows » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 10:17 PM UTC

mustacheemperor wrote: post #498

mkozlows wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did. It was CCS. Everyone except Tesla was on board to using it, and it was widely viewed as the standard going forward, and even Tesla was retro-fitting its chargers with CCS ("Magic Dock"), and presumably would one day switch its cars over. Then Tesla pulled a fast one on the morons at GM and Ford, who signed stupid deals that handed the future back to Tesla, and now the only question is whether Tesla consolid…

As far as I know, Tesla will still add CCS compatible adapters to the Supercharger network in the future, since it is a requirement for the EV network funding they're going after by opening up to additional manufacturers. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/new-bi...

That's the plan as of right now, but the clear intent here is to push the government to change the rules to allow NACS-only chargers. If a few more automakers (Hyundai and VW being probably the most relevant) sign deals with Tesla to use NACS, it'd be impossible to argue that there's any reason to do a CCS buildout.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#584

Post by ThatPlayer » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 10:18 PM UTC

jwagenet wrote: post #426

jliptzin wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just need a good EV. PHEV is like buying a typewriter with a screen when everyone is already buying computers. I have had a pure EV since 2019 and never had charging problems like that and I drive a lot. I have the 14-50 at home and it charges quickly, every morning I’m at 80% charge. Spend $100 to get an electrician to fix that for you.

I don’t have either, but it seems to me a PHEV is a great EV alternative for people who do a lot of local (city) driving and also occasionally need a vehicle to do weekend trips for camping, etc, where charging is not available or an inconvenience.

My household has an EV, a home level 2 charger, and I still wouldn't mind getting an PHEV. Not even for the weekend trips, but just because it's cheaper than another full EV, and I don't really drive enough to need the range beyond the battery on a PHEV.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#585

Post by MetaWhirledPeas » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 10:21 PM UTC

nilsbunger wrote: post #512

mustacheemperor wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I wish the government would prod manufacturers to create a common connection That is exactly why this is happening. Tesla is expanding their network and opening it to more manufacturers in pursuit of a $7.5bn federal funding program.[0] >the new rules, issued after nearly eight months of debate...seeks to give consumers unfettered access to a growing coast-to-coast network of EV charging stations, including Tesla's…

But will the CCS be as fast at charging ? It seems like Tesla could control a lot with their proprietary connector if it has a faster charge rate.

> But will the CCS be as fast at charging ? It seems like Tesla could control a lot with their proprietary connector if it has a faster charge rate.

Tesla is supporting CCS because that's what the bureaucratic funding dictates, not because anyone believes CCS will succeed. They will (and should) do the bare minimum.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#586

Post by tdiggity » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 10:22 PM UTC

isykt wrote: post #535

tdiggity wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buy the car for what it is today, not what it might be tomorrow. Many Tesla owners have been burned hoping for a feature, a retrofit, or even missing out on one taken away.

If I’m evaluating EVs for what they are today, I see little reason to buy a non-Tesla, since the charger is going to require an adapter for the charging infrastructure that appears to be the standard soon.

That's a fair point - if you are going to drive long distances, then a Tesla is the best option in terms of network reliability and price. But for most, an adapter with the occasional road trip isn't a deal breaker. Tesla owners have had to use an adapter for charging at non-superchargers since inception.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#587

Post by hn_throwaway_99 » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 10:23 PM UTC

pseudosavant wrote: post #515

javier_e06 wrote: post #458

I am an EV user. My connection is not Tesla compatible. I wish the government would prod manufacturers to create a common connection for all EVs the same way there is a common gas intake for all gas powered vehicles.

I've had EVs for 7+ years now and have plenty of experience with J1772, Chaedmo, and CCS. All I can say is thank heavens Tesla's connector is getting adopted! It is the only connector that seems like it was designed with the ease-of-use regular people expect - not what us early adopter EV people will put up with. This kind of friction does impede adoption too.

As someone who has only ever used J1772/CCS, can you explain a bit more? I mean, it's just a plug that I stick into my car - I find the newer US home AC electric outlets with the automatic "safety shutters" harder to plug into than a CCS connector, so I don't really understand what friction you're referring to.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#588

Post by hinkley » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 10:23 PM UTC

jwagenet wrote: post #426

jliptzin wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just need a good EV. PHEV is like buying a typewriter with a screen when everyone is already buying computers. I have had a pure EV since 2019 and never had charging problems like that and I drive a lot. I have the 14-50 at home and it charges quickly, every morning I’m at 80% charge. Spend $100 to get an electrician to fix that for you.

I don’t have either, but it seems to me a PHEV is a great EV alternative for people who do a lot of local (city) driving and also occasionally need a vehicle to do weekend trips for camping, etc, where charging is not available or an inconvenience.

The part of my brain that doesn’t understand how photovoltaics work really wants solar panels on EVs but aside from keeping the cabin at ambient, which does in fact have some mileage value, all they would really achieve is keeping self discharge at bay.

If you parked it with a 50 mile range and came back a week later, it might still have 50 miles of range.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#589

Post by chrisstanchak » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 10:26 PM UTC

mkozlows wrote: post #582

Server6 wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that CCS is objectively bad and way worse than NACS. I suggest watching Sandy Munro's analysis on it.

This is what Tesla fans say, but the actual reasons they give are weak. The advantages of CCS: It supports 800V today, it supports V2L/V2H/V2G today. The advantages of NACS: It's smaller, which nobody cares about except Tesla fans.

Did you watch Sandy Munro's analysis on it? He's one of the leading minds in the auto industry.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#590

Post by chrisstanchak » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 10:27 PM UTC

mustacheemperor wrote: post #498

mkozlows wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did. It was CCS. Everyone except Tesla was on board to using it, and it was widely viewed as the standard going forward, and even Tesla was retro-fitting its chargers with CCS ("Magic Dock"), and presumably would one day switch its cars over. Then Tesla pulled a fast one on the morons at GM and Ford, who signed stupid deals that handed the future back to Tesla, and now the only question is whether Tesla consolid…

As far as I know, Tesla will still add CCS compatible adapters to the Supercharger network in the future, since it is a requirement for the EV network funding they're going after by opening up to additional manufacturers. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/new-bi...

Musk is set up to win both ways. That's the genius.