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More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

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Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#581

Post by [deleted] »

revelio wrote: post #403
happytesd8889 wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh okay that makes a lot of sense. I had a required course in philosophy that was essentially just that as well. I suppose that is why I'm confused when the term is used, since I don't think I would use the term critical thinking for avoiding logical fallacies. A better term might be "not wrong thinking". Of course this also should take into account that some things we call logical fallacies probably shouldn't be con…

You're right. Academics and graduates are terrible for claiming universities teach critical thinking, yet never stating exactly what they mean or how they think they're doing that. Maybe an obscure philosophy class tries, but the vast majority of students don't take that and the claim is made about a college education in general, not philosophy classes specifically. Seems to me like it's a self-defeating argument. If…

[deleted]

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#582

Post by wombatpm »

antasvara wrote: post #452
OJFord wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or rather between them, yes. (Or a bit lower than 4.0, that's perfect right? Or do you not have to get full marks on every exam to achieve that?)

4.0 would mean that you got a letter grade of "A" in every class. In the US, that usually means you got a final grade of 95% or higher in every class.

In high school maybe. All my stem classes in college were graded on a curve. First exam freshman year was physics. I walked out thinking I failed. There were questions I did not answer. Later that night they posted raw scores. Mine was 48 pts out of 100.

I was ready to withdraw and reconsider engineering as a major.

Later still they posted the cut offs. 40 was the cutoff for an A. Avg was 36 and the cutoff for a B. My 48 was the 4th highest score.

I would have preferred the British system

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#583

Post by psaux »

mikeg8 wrote: post #441
psaux wrote: post #347

California Universities just had the most applications in history. UCLA 145k applicants, UCSD 130k applicants. Respectively they are both down now to about a 3% and 5% acceptance rate due to the spike. Might be Covid holdovers due to a gap year, or with the economy as it is, out of state applications have dropped.

If students are more likely to apply to multiple schools than before (I believe that to be the case as competition has increased. I also have multiple cousins currently applying to UCs, anecdotal) than the total number of applications would appear to increase while total unique applicants may be steady or reduced.

That is a great point. And the UC system does have a central database. It would be nice to see total uniques per school out of transparency, as you can apply to all the UC’s much easier.

This does have an adverse effect, as relatives of mine got multiple offers and others rejected or waitlisted. Not sure what the best path is, as the top 5% probably got accepted to all, at least what I am seeing from my network. Then others are left to wait for the top 5% to choose; sometimes a month. By then, most non top 5% have to make a decision elsewhere. I am sure the UC System has it all worked out, just seems it could be done better.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#584

Post by JamisonM »

Balgair wrote: post #494
zinckiwi wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American translation: graduating with anything other than a 4.0 or a 1.0 is wasted.

Oh got it now, thanks! Here in the US we have a saying of " C equals Degree", so kinda the exact opposite of the UK saying. Strange!

I have always known it as "C's get degrees" but that's sort of a crass expression, not really the equivalent of the quote which is presented as "life advice" for the enrichment of those that receive it.

"C's get degrees": The bare minimum to get the credential is the optimal use of resources.

"You want either a first or a fourth. There is no value in anything between.": Either excel at school to maximize your achievement or don't worry about your grades and simply pursue whatever comes your way from the opportunity to be there to enrich your life.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#585

Post by vxNsr »

rootusrootus wrote: post #449
xyzelement wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are referring to something on one hand very valuable, on the other hand it's very easy to graduate college without learning that, and I think colleges themselves in recent decades are pivoting away from. A hundred+ years ago when "almost nobody" went to college, college was a place for those hungry and willing to sacrifice for intellectual growth. Nowadays college is a baseline consumer good that "almost…

> I had a class that really critically analyzed native American cultures. Today the class would be considered racist, it would have to a priori be an admiration of those cultures, rather than a critical analysis. It's amazing that now we're getting hit from both directions in this regard. The left would like minorities treated with kid gloves, and now the right wants to muzzle schools that would say anything critical…

> and now the right wants to muzzle schools that would say anything critical of white people or positive about minorities.

I don’t think this really true. It’s the sort of thing you’ll read on Reddit comment threads and breathless NPR article titles but when you actually dig into the story it ends up being a boring story about, sticking to facts and not some alt-history histrionics.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#586

Post by JamesBarney »

azinman2 wrote: post #40
pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

It also grows the intellectual souls, exposing people to far more depth of thought. It also builds professional networks. If a person is smart enough to receive it, more education is almost always good. Of course money is a factor, and schools have gotten insanely expensive. I’m glad to hear that more people are finding alternative routes - it shouldn’t be that everyone needs college because quite frankly many career…

> It also grows the intellectual souls, exposing people to far more depth of thought.

Is there any evidence of this?

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#587

Post by ip26 »

listless wrote: post #346
alsaaro wrote: post #88

As someone who has worked two of the most intensive blue collar jobs, people should be wary of romanticizing blue collar work. Blue collar workers are expected to really work at their jobs. White collar workers can chill if there is no work to be done, or be sent home early with pay, or take a relaxation day and just browse the internet and listen to podcasts. They have perks, you see white collar workers leaving wor…

At the risk of sounding like a terrible person, I'd like to be honest for a second about why I went to college, which is to avoid this exactly reality that you just laid out. I enlisted in the military after finding college to be too boring for my taste. 3 months later I found myself doing the hardest manual labor of my life on a riverboat for the Coast Guard. The pay was not great and nobody cared if you didn't feel…

You’re certainly right that people casually complain of burnout long before it has reached medical significance, but it isn’t just some imaginary condition. Burnout seems like the brain equivalent of overexertion injuries. In full form it seems rather similar to battle fatigue.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#588

Post by t-3 »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

> they could otherwise have had great careers in fields that don't truly need the education you get from a college.

What fields? I can't even get an interview for any job that isn't factory/grocery/warehouse because I don't have a degree. That useless piece of paper opens doors.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#589

Post by ip26 »

derbOac wrote: post #383
InvaderFizz wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got my degree at 35 because of this. Not that I actually learned much of anything in the program, I was there purely for the paper. This is where schools like WGU excel for those of us just seeking credentials for what we already know. The terms are six months, you can do as many courses as you want during that six months. Over half the courses are just a final exam. You take a pre-test on day one of the course. If…

"seeking credentials for what we already know" Not about you at all in particular (quite the opposite), but this is what drives me into a frenzy of frustration about the world today. Seems like everything is about credentials and appearance rather than obvious potential or ability.

On the other hand, if you reek of obvious potential and ooze ability from every pore, and WGU can get you a degree in six months, why don’t you have that credential?

Credentials don’t really prove ability, but there’s a weird staying power that can come from the “minimum bar” it sets.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#590

Post by ip26 »

karaterobot wrote: post #78
Mc91 wrote: post #9

I have been programming for a Fortune 500 company for four years. Not long ago, I applied for a job at another Fortune 500 company. HR really had only question for me, they saw on my resume I did not have a college degree listed, and did I have one? I said I went through most of college towards a Bachelors in Computer Science but dropped out before graduation. I did not get the job, although I don't know if that's wh…

When I hired people at a former company, I secretly thought of job candidates like you as undervalued stocks. Just being honest, don't mean any disrespect — I mean undervalued in the sense of not being appreciated by other companies, not in how much we paid people. I myself have degrees, but not in anything like software development, and I think engineers who don't have degrees but do exhibit all the other characteri…

The problem is finding those undervalued assets, sifting through a sea of unacceptable candidates.
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