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Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

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Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#581

Post by LordDragonfang »

lynndotpy wrote: post #571
John23832 wrote: post #90

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

> EDIT: In the below thread are many people who personally identify as omnipresent IRC Gods, so my experience must have happened in an alternate universe. My bad. For what it's worth, this aligns with what I've seen on IRC as well (in the 00s.) I really think a lot of people just don't see bigotry for what it is when it's not explicit. (E.g. "lol girl = guy irl, there are no girls on the internet" being a common sent…

This is why it's so sad/annoying that the word "priviledge" has devolved into a meaning-devoid cudgel, because it's such a useful term in discussions like these. If you're not personally affected by something, it's easy to miss something for what it is or even just not see it, even if it's happening all around you.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#582

Post by Insanity »

lynndotpy wrote: post #571
John23832 wrote: post #90

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

> EDIT: In the below thread are many people who personally identify as omnipresent IRC Gods, so my experience must have happened in an alternate universe. My bad. For what it's worth, this aligns with what I've seen on IRC as well (in the 00s.) I really think a lot of people just don't see bigotry for what it is when it's not explicit. (E.g. "lol girl = guy irl, there are no girls on the internet" being a common sent…

+1. Not just on IRC but all around the internet and online gaming in those days. Back when you had dedicated servers and they would devolve into more of a chat room anyway.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#583

Post by cmh89 »

John23832 wrote: post #509
tacitusarc wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see a different risk with DEI, and I’d sure love your perspective if you’re willing to give it. I think there’s a certain class of people (mostly young and white though the fact they are white is explainable as a statistical artifact) who feel empowered by DEI to push for changes that are meaningless and burdensome, but give them a feeling of power and virtuousness. This includes changing away from “master” as a br…

> I see a different risk with DEI, and I’d sure love your perspective if you’re willing to give it. I think there’s a certain class of people (mostly young and white though the fact they are white is explainable as a statistical artifact) who feel empowered by DEI to push for changes that are meaningless and burdensome, but give them a feeling of power and virtuousness. Yes there are plenty of people who want to sit…

>This isn't true. Paper bags were never racist. I don't know where you picked this from. This is a misleading description to make anti-racism seem absurd.

What do you mean by 'isn't true'? It's at least real to some extent, without regard to how widespread it was.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Paper_Bag_Test https://www.ferris.edu/HTMLS/news/jimcrow/question/2014/febr...

It's also the case that DEI groups want people to stop using 'brown bag lunch'.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#584

Post by anonymouskimmer »

gfodor wrote: post #575
kmeisthax wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The falsifiable condition is that the underlying social attitudes driving the racism/sexism/etc have dissolved. Problem is, this is a social process that takes centuries to complete. You are never going to hit a point in a single institution where you can say "We fixed our diversity problem, let's go home", because it can just come back as you hire more people and older hires leave. Furthermore, society is frustratin…

What you have pointed out is the exact opposite of a falsifiable condition. If we can’t disprove the possibility of a regression back to the past, then this is not meeting the test, and we should expect the results I mentioned. You actually could and should abolish the police in certain kinds of terminal states where crime was eradicated - the eradication may be due to a genuine shift in the way people behave (due to…

> the eradication may be due to a genuine shift in the way people behave (due to some other underlying reason.)

For a generation or two, sure, but eventually it will come back unless the cultural training continues. I mean, there's a reason for historic cultural universals such as racism, dueling between men, and talking down to lessers.

I think the best case scenario is that DEI eventually gets rolled up into regular HR.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#585

Post by replygirl »

tacitusarc wrote: post #372
John23832 wrote: post #90

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

I see a different risk with DEI, and I’d sure love your perspective if you’re willing to give it. I think there’s a certain class of people (mostly young and white though the fact they are white is explainable as a statistical artifact) who feel empowered by DEI to push for changes that are meaningless and burdensome, but give them a feeling of power and virtuousness. This includes changing away from “master” as a br…

the brown bag thing was colorism, which while technically a subset of racism is not useful to investigate in the context of popular anti-racism as it pertains to DEI in the west, which would be better labeled as anti-white-supremacism

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#586

Post by replygirl »

cmh89 wrote: post #583
John23832 wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see a different risk with DEI, and I’d sure love your perspective if you’re willing to give it. I think there’s a certain class of people (mostly young and white though the fact they are white is explainable as a statistical artifact) who feel empowered by DEI to push for changes that are meaningless and burdensome, but give them a feeling of power and virtuousness. Yes there are plenty of people who want to sit…

>This isn't true. Paper bags were never racist. I don't know where you picked this from. This is a misleading description to make anti-racism seem absurd. What do you mean by 'isn't true'? It's at least real to some extent, without regard to how widespread it was. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Paper_Bag_Test https://www.ferris.edu/HTMLS/news/jimcrow/question/2014/febr... It's also the case that DEI groups want…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34681801

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#587

Post by LordDragonfang »

DrThunder wrote: post #431
tacitusarc wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see a different risk with DEI, and I’d sure love your perspective if you’re willing to give it. I think there’s a certain class of people (mostly young and white though the fact they are white is explainable as a statistical artifact) who feel empowered by DEI to push for changes that are meaningless and burdensome, but give them a feeling of power and virtuousness. This includes changing away from “master” as a br…

There is power in victimhood now. If you can prove you're a victim or prove you're submitting to a certain group you've "victimized" then you are put at the top of the order. You become part of essentially a religious cult and given certain "powers" that you can bash the "sinners" over the head with. I think you're exactly right here, the largest proponents of this stuff tend to be white and left wing (mostly women).…

>There is power in victimhood now

Anyone who's been to Sunday school can tell you this isn't a new concept, and is at least two millennia old (almost certainly longer, since Judaism has an even longer shared tradition). Christians have continued riding the coattails of their martyrs and "persecution" for centuries after they became the dominant force. If anything, the modern "woke victimhood" is merely the cultural legacy of evangelical Christianity that was (and arguably still is) deeply engrained in US culture.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#588

Post by busterarm »

nullc wrote: post #455
908B64B197 wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in America that would be completely illegal (And a lawyer somewhere would probably buy his next boat with that case!).

It's illegal. It's also at least somewhat common now. It's easier to leave a company for another, probably better paying, job elsewhere than it is to bring a lawsuit.

Also if you bring a lawsuit, you'll pretty much be blacklisted from any company doing DEI, which is everyone that can pay well.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#589

Post by John23832 »

cmh89 wrote: post #583
John23832 wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see a different risk with DEI, and I’d sure love your perspective if you’re willing to give it. I think there’s a certain class of people (mostly young and white though the fact they are white is explainable as a statistical artifact) who feel empowered by DEI to push for changes that are meaningless and burdensome, but give them a feeling of power and virtuousness. Yes there are plenty of people who want to sit…

>This isn't true. Paper bags were never racist. I don't know where you picked this from. This is a misleading description to make anti-racism seem absurd. What do you mean by 'isn't true'? It's at least real to some extent, without regard to how widespread it was. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Paper_Bag_Test https://www.ferris.edu/HTMLS/news/jimcrow/question/2014/febr... It's also the case that DEI groups want…

> What do you mean by 'isn't true'? It's at least real to some extent, without regard to how widespread it was.

The paper bag test doesn't make paper bags racist. It's a shade test.

> It's also the case that DEI groups want people to stop using 'brown bag lunch'.

I can't say that this hasn't happened. But if it has, this is one of the useless things that I take umbrage with in my original post.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#590

Post by DrThunder »

LordDragonfang wrote: post #587
DrThunder wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is power in victimhood now. If you can prove you're a victim or prove you're submitting to a certain group you've "victimized" then you are put at the top of the order. You become part of essentially a religious cult and given certain "powers" that you can bash the "sinners" over the head with. I think you're exactly right here, the largest proponents of this stuff tend to be white and left wing (mostly women).…

>There is power in victimhood now Anyone who's been to Sunday school can tell you this isn't a new concept, and is at least two millennia old (almost certainly longer, since Judaism has an even longer shared tradition). Christians have continued riding the coattails of their martyrs and "persecution" for centuries after they became the dominant force. If anything, the modern "woke victimhood" is merely the cultural l…

I'm confused... are you endorsing acting this way or against it?

Kinda seems like you're justifying the current action of "woke" people by discussing past injustices? Isn't the whole idea of the "woke" DEI initiative to fix injustices in our society?

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