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Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

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Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#581

Post by mazdayasna »

ChicagoDave wrote: post #469
ivraatiems wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you ever watch 12 Angry Men ? There's a scene in that movie where an unabashedly racist man is making his point as loudly and angrily as he can. One by one, all the others in the room turn their backs on him. When only one man is left, that man has a short message for the racist: "Sit down, and don't open your mouth again while I'm here." Nobody puts him in jail. Nobody takes away his right to make a living or hi…

I don't know the entire history here, but my understanding is that KF was a forum where doxing and swatting was openly pervasive. Sounds like a perfect example of society holding a site accountable and producing the correct outcome. There was no government involved, so it's not a "free speech" issue. I always talk about the wild west of the late 90's when the Internet was brand new. My colleagues and I all talked abo…

Here is an excellent writeup on the forum and the recent drama, that is not actively trying to push an agenda on the situation.

https://defaultfriend.substack.com/p/suicide-by-kiwi-farms

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#582

Post by mikl »

tedivm wrote: post #481
mikl wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DDoS’ing is quite different from just turning your back on someone. It’s more akin to following someone around with a megaphone and shouting over everything they say so no one can hear them. Sure, you might celebrate when that’s done to someone you dislike, but a lot less appealing if you imagine it done to a cause you agree with.

You have no idea how ironic this comment is considering the history of Cloudflare. I remember going to a talk by their CEO at Defcon years ago when Scientology was being DDoSed and he was bragging about providing CDN services to the Anonymous hacker groups that were behind the DDoS. Cloudflare didn't seem to care about free speech for the Scientologists. There was even a huge discussion about whether performing a DDo…

In public, sure, but a website is explicitly private property, so the megaphone-DDoS move would in this case be trespassing and harassment.

And the slippery slope is a real problem, no matter how much people call it a fallacy. As we’ve seen countless times in history, the distance from viewing some group as less deserving of freedom than you, and actively persecuting them is short.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#583

Post by Cyberdog »

agentdrtran wrote: post #552
Cyberdog wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> Doxxing, sometimes; swatting, no. Posting plans for any sort of real-life harassment on KF will get you mocked by other users and possibly banned. then why does it happen all the time?

No post body was provided.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#584

Post by Febra33 »

Cloudflare or any other privately owned company doesn't have an obligation to service everyone. They are not violating their free speech, no matter how long you turn it on every side. Kiwi Farms can host their website on any other platform and get any other service they want. No one is forced to service them.

Let's not forget that they have been known to publicise private information of people that ended up with them being swatted. They are a big enable of this behaviour. Not only that, but they have been also involved in three suicides at this point. I don't think any private company wants to associate themselves with such a client.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#585

Post by danielfoster »

that_guy_iain wrote: post #45

The thing is, it's hard to feel bad for kiwifarms. They seem to be one of the worst sites there are. But freedom of speech/expression/opinions aren't about defending those who speech/expression/opinions you like but all of them. Personally, I think the site being shutdown is a good thing. But it's hard to look at the fact a few corporations can remove a website from the internet and think this is good for a free and…

How else would the website be removed? Should Cloudflare have hosted a vote or something? I think they took it down because millions of people wanted them to, not on a whim.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#586

Post by masklinn »

cowtools wrote: post #523
ChicagoDave wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the entire history here, but my understanding is that KF was a forum where doxing and swatting was openly pervasive. Sounds like a perfect example of society holding a site accountable and producing the correct outcome. There was no government involved, so it's not a "free speech" issue. I always talk about the wild west of the late 90's when the Internet was brand new. My colleagues and I all talked abo…

Free speech is more than just an amendment to the constitution. It is also a doctrine that knowledge and discussion should generally be free, and that people shouldn't be persecuted for their beliefs. It used to be that all forums had pervasive doxxing and swatting. People didn't use to have public internet identities like they do today- probably because there wasn't any way to profit from owning a public identity or…

> Free speech is more than just an amendment to the constitution. It is also a doctrine that knowledge and discussion should generally be free, and that people shouldn't be persecuted for their beliefs.

"Generally" is an important word here. So is "should". That speech "should generally" be free does not mean all speech is always acceptable.

As the saying goes, your freedom to act ends where my nose begins. When a site is used to organize and synchronise harassment for months, to the at least tacit allowance and at most open encouragement of the site's management, it is way beyond where noses begin.

> It used to be that all forums had pervasive doxxing and swatting.

That is a level of nonsense and whataboutism I've rarely seen.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#587

Post by phantom_of_cato »

nickdothutton wrote: post #576

I’m continually surprised that Facebook, Twitter, and the rest dont simply create a web interface for law enforcement that allows them to delete (or more likely make invisible) content they want to censor. Noting in place of the post or tweet or whatever “law enforcement in your jurisdiction has deemed this post illegal and have hidden it for your safety”. There’s a culture war afoot, the government wants to insert i…

> I’m continually surprised that Facebook, Twitter, and the rest dont simply create a web interface for law enforcement that allows them to delete (or more likely make invisible) content they want to censor.

In the US, we have the First Amendment, which prohibits government censorship. Of course, the government still sometimes uses political pressure to censor things, but there's a need to keep a semblance of rule of law.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#588

Post by birdboy2000 »

phillipcarter wrote: post #499
birdboy2000 wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to think of that many positions more right-wing than "corporate monopolies should be able to disappear anything you say on a whim with no safeguards" but that's the one you're endorsing. Would it kill you to have any sort of critical analysis of power for once in your life? KF are scum but they're far from the only scum in this fight, and others are infinitely more dangerous

> Would it kill you to have any sort of critical analysis of power for once in your life? You seem angry. Have you considered addressing that?

would be nice to have somewhere to blow off steam but the internet is down to like four or five active sites now and none of them are fun (KF wasn't either, mind)

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#589

Post by Kiro »

_dain_ wrote: post #205
sgarland wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the driving-people-to-suicide thing is a lie. Here's a former FBI Asst. Dir. asserting that they do [0] (archive link in case it's removed [1]). I'll grant you that the government can and has lied, but all of this seems a lot like one side full of tremendously shitty people saying they're not guilty, and the other side saying the opposite. In the absence of definitive proof, I'll go with character. [0] https://twit…

He's just repeating what he read on wikipedia. I really doubt he looked closely into the matter.

Why are you defending KF so hard? Even in the thread on the Cloudflare issue itself I saw the N-word, transphobic and antisemitic slurs, and calls to doxx the CEO... and that was just the first page.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#590

Post by Febra33 »

nickdothutton wrote: post #576

I’m continually surprised that Facebook, Twitter, and the rest dont simply create a web interface for law enforcement that allows them to delete (or more likely make invisible) content they want to censor. Noting in place of the post or tweet or whatever “law enforcement in your jurisdiction has deemed this post illegal and have hidden it for your safety”. There’s a culture war afoot, the government wants to insert i…

I fail to see how you connected all of these points together. How did you get from "a private company chooses who they service" to "the government inserts itself between warring parties"? It really looks like you're pushing an agenda.
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