Earlier quoted context omitted.
Many Poor muslims just as many poor Indian are now getting electricity, subsidised toilets, zero balance bank accounts, direct benefits transfer for the first time under BJP rule. Many muslim women are for the first time are freed from triple talaq. Their life is certainly far better than the muslims in Pakistan, so much so that many parts of Pakistan are revolting and claiming to want to reunite with India. Whatever…
Jesus christ, it's 2022 and you're legitimately arguing that BJP is helpful towards Muslims.
Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system
581–590 of 592 posts
Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system
#582as a complete outsider to the caste system, say i was american-born or otherwise "white-washed". would I still be subject to this system?
Interesting question. In other words, is the Indian caste system effectively simple racism that follows a person regardless of whether they were raised in that culture, or is there a more subtle cultural undertone. An analogy might be black Brits getting discriminated by Jim Crow laws in the old American South. That was simple racism based on skin color and it didn't matter if you were American or not.
Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system
#583It's so disappointing to see in the article that caste discrimination is still being blamed by some on the religion of Hinduism. There's no dharmic status whatsoever for "caste" in the commonplace sense. The Vedas occasionally talk about something that gets misinterpreted as caste, but it's very clear from the texts that they're talking about individual callings and aptitudes, and not any sort of immutable status. Th…
> There's no dharmic status whatsoever for "caste" in the commonplace sense I have read many verses from Manu Smriti, Parashara Smriti, and Yajnabalka Smriti. They are ripe with casteism. In Vedas, too, it is mentioned that Sudras are created from the feet of Purusha, and Brahmins from the head. And also, Mahabharata mentions that brahmins can't face capital punishment. The most that can be done is banishing them. In…
That is the varna system. There is no caste system in Vedas or in Hinduism.
The same verse from Purusha Suktam also appears in Zoroastrian Avesta Yasna and the Pahlavi Denkard.
‘Caste’ comes from ‘Casta’, a Portuguese word.
Now…what does it mean by allocating different parts of the body to different categories of people?
‘Purusha’ is the cosmic man. Before the gods were created, there was Purusha. The gods themselves came from the sacrifice of Purusha. The immortality of gods was granted to them because they were willing to sacrifice themselves for the mortals/humanity. So every time they perished, they were resurrected.
The concept of yagna in Hinduism symbolises the sacrifice of the gods. Vedas say that our lives too are a sacrifice. We live and we die. We merge with a universal consciousness. When we are no different from this universal consciousness, we are resurrected too. That is the principle of reincarnation. In sacrifice, we will find our resurrection.
The sacrifice of a god and the resurrection of said god is a recurring theme in many faiths and religions.
The Purusha Suktam is a poem about sacrifice of The Cosmic Man. He has a thousand heads and a thousand limbs. And how his sacrifice comes down as the five elementals of fire, air, earth, water and space. From these, all of creation is born..as earth and skies, planets and stars, forests, oceans, land forms. This disembodied Cosmic Man enters as sunshine and rain. Plants, mammals, birds and insects are created. And then so is man..sun becomes the soul and moon becomes the mind. Seven sheaths of gross matter is formed as the physical bodies..from his body, the four varnas are created so man can create division of labour. Nowhere is caste mentioned. Nor do the Vedas ask people to discriminate against each other.
A Brahmin lives on charity and studies Vedic knowledge for teaching and for the world benefit. A Kshatriya takes that knowledge and implements it as a ruler. A Vaishya takes care of the material needs that fuels the system. The Shudra works and creates what society needs.
The varna system reflects the four purusharthas: dharma, artha, kama, moksha. The Brahmin has to uphold Dharma(divine law). The Kshatriya has to deliver artha(material goals) according to Dharma. Vaishya and Shudra are motivated by artha and kama(material goals and desires). Moksha is for anyone who seeks it..and hence for everyone.
Brahmin lives on charity but is bound by religious rules and regulations. Kshatriya has power, but also has duty. Should be ready to fight and die to protect his people. Vaishya is free to accumulate wealth but also has responsibility to fund the entire society. Shudra only needs to work to take care of his desires, has to bear burden of labour and owes nothing to anyone. This system worked as there were many small manageable kingdoms and there was conformity. Conformity means less conflict. There was mobility between small kingdoms that if one was allergic to the homogeneity, there was another place to belong to..until the Muslim invaders came first abs then British raj came and got rid of the kingdoms.
Now Brahmins had to work and Kings were useless. Merchants were burdened to pay dictators and invaders and colonial masters. Resources were diminished and there was no more fair redistribution of available resources. It was a survival game now. The solid foundation and implicit safety net was gone. Every one of the varnas has one benefit and one handicap. So each one depended on the other three and peaceful balance was easier to maintain.
It’s like a game of Jenga. Take away one piece and everything comes crumbling down. Invasions and colonialism keep pulling pieces all the time but the system was self healing. Until it wasn’t.
You are mistaken. There is no caste in Hinduism. Purusha suktam is about the sacrifice of The Cosmic Man. It appears in the Rig Veda and also in other religions of that time. Hinduism is the only surviving polytheistic religion. It draws ire because of it’s very existence. It’s a threat abs irritant to the monotheistic faiths because of its foundational difference of opinion wrt individual soul, consciousness and it’s place in the universe.
Monotheism cannot erase Hinduism although there has been efforts to tarnish its core. Yes..Purusha Suktam is part of Hindu scriptures. Varna is mentioned. Caste isn’t. Social edits to a religious text is someone else’s responsibility. That is collateral damage due to civilizational pressures.
Hinduism is not for everyone. And that’s ok. There are many religions in the world. And different faiths. As well as atheism and agnosticism and ignosticism. But I don’t think a casual assassination of the Hindu faith that is followed by approximately one billion people is warranted or should be condoned due to incomplete religious literacy.
Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system
#584Earlier quoted context omitted.
One of the primary things these stories never truly elaborate properly on in the quest to establish social rank out of a caste-based society is that Black Americans, that were native to the US, and even for black migrants to India and other countries, are some of the most affected by caste politics of this kind in employment and work opportunity. Often having darker skin, Black Americans are even prone to more discri…
> Often having darker skin, Black Americans are even prone to more discrimination domestically. Any editorial that doesn't recognize that fact as a truth has no legs to stand on in my opinion. Nigerian immigrants outperform most domestic US groups. So clearly "skin color" isn't the main factor (if at all).
This is very true. Most of the time when people think they're talking about race, they're actually talking about culture, which happens to be a much trickier concept. The Nigeria example, for instance, is an inconvenient truth that doesn't mesh well with the dominant race-essentialist narrative right now, so it typically gets ignored or outright dismissed.
Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system
#585Earlier quoted context omitted.
Jamaicans are even more prone to be poorer than Americans. Would your retort be "but Jamaicans who've won multiple gold medals in sprinting are wealthier than most Americans?" People who smoke are more likely to get lung cancer. Would your retort be "13 year olds who smoke have less incidents of lung cancer than the non-smoking population?" If you subsample enough, you'll find outliers. That doesn't invalidate genera…
That's not at all how I interpreted the parent comment. I read it as the types of hardships and barriers that, say, a US descendant of slaves faces can be very different from a Nigerian immigrant, and that's one problem with lumping everyone with the same skin color together as "Black" when calculating diversity metrics.
Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system
#586I am an Indian who is from an OBC category. Caste related pieces in the western press miss the entire context around 1st-world-discrimination among Indians. It annoys me to no end, because discrimination is still a major problem in certain communities. But, the western media has cast it onto their agonizingly shallow concept of privilege and bigotry. I will preemptively apologize for my directness. Euphemisms dilute.…
Let's take an example of an upper caste manager and a lower caste IC reporting to him. If the manager rates the IC poorly because of genuine performance reasons, the IC may still feel it is because of caste, instead of his poor performance
Let's take an example of a Lower caste manager and an upper caste IC reporting to him. If the IC disagrees with the manager about something, the manager again may think it is because of caste.
In this way it becomes hopeless.
Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system
#587Earlier quoted context omitted.
Among muslims themselves its practically non-existent. Speaking as a Muslim, the way the Indian society perceives us, we are the lowest of the lowest castes. Muslims themselves perceive our layer as fairly flat. This is mostly because most muslims themselves have been caste refugees to a new religion(Islam) in the past. And for the better wouldn't want to go back to that history.
Not true, you maybe an "upper-caste muslim". 1 ) https://theprint.in/opinion/indias-muslim-community-under-a-... 2) https://www.opindia.com/2020/10/muslim-social-hierarchy-cast... 3) https://theprint.in/opinion/pasmanda-muslims-missing-from-po... 4) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lENVbLrJOQw 5) https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/we-need-a-caste-censu... 6) https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/dilip-kumar-the-gar…
Dad started with manual labor work, and things like cutting wood in forests when he started. Retired as a taxi driver.
Not seen any caste system in muslims, let alone discrimination of any kind. Looks like desparate attempt from Hindus to drag muslims into this just to be able to say 'Its not just us'.
Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system
#588Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're okay working with people so bigoted that you have to hide them away from certain parts of their job because they might fuck it up with their bigotry? Why are they still employed? How can you be okay with coworkers that can't be expected to treat everyone in the company with a certain level of respect? Do you believe that's just the way "they" are? Is that the way you are? Remind me never to apply for a job at…
I think the idea is that people’s biases are often not obvious or detectable. Not saying this idea is a good way to avoid making decisions on such biases, but I don’t think it’s as black and white as you put it.
In this case, though, the biases are so apparent that these employees can't be expected to interact with other potential employees. If an employee's behavior is so abhorrent you have to work around them, they should be replaced.
Another way to think of it - I'm sure the company has language in it's employee handbook around non-discrimination. These employees are overtly violating this language. By letting them stay on and accommodating their behavior, a clear message is sent that they're not serious about non-discrimination.
Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system
#589Earlier quoted context omitted.
The fact that you responded to me and not to any of mama123 comments - a textbook case of what urban casteism looks like - tells me a lot about what an upper caste person's definition of good faith and bad faith is.
I picked the bottom of the thread as I skimmed by, which was capped by a clearly egregious comment. That doesn’t mean there weren’t others that were also bad. No idea why you think caste comes into the picture at all?
Of all the things you found out of line is my comment calling out one of these lies.
If you are engaging in good faith, you would be replying to any of the several lies being trotted out in this thread, such as "caste system was created by British and Indian Christians via colonialism" instead of expressing hostility to somebody who is countering the lies - by trying to make some irrelevant meta point to distract from the core issue.
Re: Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system
#590Earlier quoted context omitted.
If your argument is that one is worse than the other because you can hide then you didn't take into account things like plastic surgery or bleaching one's skin or straightening one's hair. If you're going to tell someone to just abandon their family name then why not tell them to get plastic surgery or anything else to modify their appearance? It's a bad argument.
If simply bleaching one's skin or straightening hair allowed one to hide their racial phenotype ,then millions would be doing it and we wouldn't have all these problems. Race is immutable in most parts of the world.
Lots of people do do this. Aren't you aware of skin creams to whiten the skin, hair straightening products, eye lid surgeries, etc. The list goes on and on.
> then millions would be doing it and we wouldn't have all these problems
But those alone aren't enough. You need massive amounts of plastic surgery.
Financial cost is one but also the cost to one's identity.
But more importantly, millions of people wouldn't just throw away their identity. For this same reason, telling someone they can just change their last name is makes no sense.
> Race is immutable in most parts of the world.
Identity is just as immutable. You can tell someone to change their last name but that is about as effective as wearing different clothes. You cannot change a person's upbringing, how they were socialized, their memories, how they view the world. All of that is more or less set in stone from childhood.
You're better off getting plastic surgery. At least that will be effective.