Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#581

Post by bsder » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:12 AM UTC

sekai wrote: post #531

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

> Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't Already happens, with welfare. > Predators - individuals and companies will find a way to take your UBI check from you as fast as possible Already happens, with welfare. > Charity - let's say we actually give every person enough money for food, housing, and utilities. Some people will mess up. Alre…

References, please.

"Welfare" has a really big downside that it "phases out" (because of a "means" test) which locks people on one side of a "qualification" line.

UBI wipes that perverse incentive out.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#582

Post by millstone » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:13 AM UTC

sekai wrote: post #531

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

> Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't Already happens, with welfare. > Predators - individuals and companies will find a way to take your UBI check from you as fast as possible Already happens, with welfare. > Charity - let's say we actually give every person enough money for food, housing, and utilities. Some people will mess up. Alre…

I wonder if this post was transported from 1996?

The 2020 USA welfare state is bonkers stingy and punitive: prove you have these dependents and have been looking for work for this long and have not received benefits for this period...

UBI would be an absolute sea change. It is not some mild extension of "welfare" which isn't really a thing. Go in clear-eyed!

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#583

Post by LatteLazy » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:15 AM UTC

The issue with ubi is that it will never be implimentable with the type of winner-takes-all government of the US, UK, Australia etc. There will always be a slim majority to cross out the Universal part and give people like them (almost) double and everyone else nothing. This is why we have insanely high pensioner benefits and no funding for working people at the moment.

If you cannot implimented a good policy, it doesn't matter how good it is, it's a unicorn.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#584

Post by glogla » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:15 AM UTC

3131s wrote: post #551

zpeti wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something no one ever talks about with UBI is how the effects will be eliminated in a few years. The very things poorer people would buy from it would get more expensive by the UBI proportion, it will just be inflated away. When everyone has an extra $1000 do you really think landlords won’t increase rent? The price of food and clothing won’t increase? When literally an entire country is richer by this amount? UBI do…

Something no one ever talks about with UBI is how the effects will be eliminated in a few years. The very things poorer people would buy from it would get more expensive by the UBI proportion, it will just be inflated away. Someone brings this up in literally every UBI discussion ever.

Because it makes sense. Why wouldn't rent seekers - both landlords and more abstract rent-seekers - just raise prices?

Maybe competition takes care of that? But that doesn't seem to work very well in the current housing market.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#585

Post by sascha_sl » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:15 AM UTC

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

The US already has lacking support systems. I'm still baffled how people can simultaneously complain about tent encampments and not be outraged at the lack of homeless shelters. I'm not sure if there's much to destroy left.

Elsewhere, neoliberal UBI would definitely cut into these systems.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#586

Post by mytailorisrich » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:15 AM UTC

zpeti wrote: post #548

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

Something no one ever talks about with UBI is how the effects will be eliminated in a few years. The very things poorer people would buy from it would get more expensive by the UBI proportion, it will just be inflated away. When everyone has an extra $1000 do you really think landlords won’t increase rent? The price of food and clothing won’t increase? When literally an entire country is richer by this amount? UBI do…

> When everyone has an extra $1000 do you really think landlords won’t increase rent?

Before even going there the key is to ask where this money comes from. Handing any significant amount of money on a recurring basis to everyone is tremendously expensive.

Without considering inflation the first issue that comes to mind is that people will use the extra money to pay the extra tax needed to give them extra money....

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#587

Post by stiray » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:15 AM UTC

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

Even if I like the idea of UBI idealistically, I am worried about potential inflation.

Once there is more money in the system (that before the UBI just wasnt there) the prices of basic things might rise and at the end the money you get from UBI will be a "new zero".

I am not saying that this will happen but I think this is serious concern.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#588

Post by frobozz » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:17 AM UTC

AdamHede wrote: post #539

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

I especially buy into your third concern. Where I live, if the introduction of a UBI was followed by a drastic reduction (or complete elimination) of the means-tested system we know today, hunger would potentially become a problem for people blowing their money early in the month (or getting robbed?). This tells me the utopian ideas of replacing the entire complex system with a simple UBI isn't feasible. You'll end u…

> if the introduction of a UBI was followed by a drastic reduction (or complete elimination) of the means-tested system we know today,

As I understand it, that elimination is part of the point of UBI. The MTBs are no longer needed.

Why do you think hunger would be caused by UBI? At worst, I would expects those who already depend on MTBs would be in the same position they are in today.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#589

Post by waingake » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:18 AM UTC

For the advocates of a UBI—the problem of capitalism merely concerns the distribution of wealth, whereas the production and measure of wealth under capitalism are never interrogated.

No form of universal basic income can free us from capitalist exploitation, since only wage labor in the service of profit can generate the wealth that is distributed in the form of a UBI.

The less our lives are exploited for the sake of profit—i.e., the more we devote our lives to the public goods of the welfare state or to non-profit projects supported by a UBI—the less wealth there is to finance the welfare state and the universal basic income. This practical contradiction in the redistribution of wealth is unavoidable under capitalism, since the measure of value is socially necessary labor time rather than socially available free time. The more we emancipate ourselves from the exploitation of living labor time, the less wealth we have to support our state of freedom.

Excerpts from "Hägglund, Martin. This Life"

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#590

Post by ekianjo » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:18 AM UTC

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

> Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages.

The main point is that it makes people dependent of the State if they entirely live on the UBI, which is a pretty poor behavior to encourage - the larger the UBI-reliant population becomes, the more they will extract value from non-UBI reliant people through elections and majority.