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Google tracks individual users per Chrome installation ID

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Re: Google tracks individual users per Chrome installation ID

#581
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are not including any PII... while creating a new identifier for each installation. 13 bits of entropy probably isn't a unique identifier iff you only look at that header in isolation. Combined with at least 24 additional bits[1] of entropy from the IPv4 Source Address field Google receives >=37 bits of entropy, which is almost certainly a unique ID for the browser. Linking that browser ID to a personal accoun…

One clarification: - By default it's much more than 13 bits of entropy - If you disable usage statistics then you are limited to 13 bits of entropy

Actually, the low entropy provider is used for any field trials that get included in the header.

See: https://cs.chromium.org/chromium/src/components/variations/v...

Re: Google tracks individual users per Chrome installation ID

#582
post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The value of x-client-data is personal data, because it is associated with an IP address during transit, due to how HTTP requests work. This is not correct. The x-client-data is not personal data. x-client-data associated with an IP address is personal data. As soon as you separate the client-data from the IP, the client data stops being personal data. IOW, the tuple (x-client-data, IP) is personal data. But x-clie…

> That would make the existence of anonymous data practically speaking impossible to have on the web For almost every type of data that is true. Transforming or substituting data doesn't make it anonymous; the patters in the data are still present. To produce actually anonymous data you have to do what the GDPR instructed: corrupt the data ("rendered anonymous") severely enough that the "data subject is ... no longer…

> You need to do something like aggregate the data into a small number of groups such that individual records no longer exist. Techniques like "differential privacy" let you control precisely how "anonymous" your data is by e.g. mixing in carefully crafted noise.

Correct, and another anonymization technique (in place of differential privacy) is k-anonymity. In k-anonymity schemes, you ensure that in any given table no row corresponds to any fewer than k individuals. Why is this useful? Well let's say you have some, say, 10-15 bit identifier. You can take a request from a user that contains information that might when combined, be identifying. Say: coarseish location (state/country), device metadata (browser version, OS version), and coarse access time (the hour and day of week). Combining all 3 (or 4 if you include the psuedonymous ID) is enough to uniquely identify at least some users. Then let's say you also track some performance statistics about the browser itself.

But any single piece of data (plus the pseudonymous ID) is not enough to identify any specific user. So if you use the psuedonymous ID as a shared foreign key, you can join across the tables and get approximate crosstabs without uniquely identifying any specific user. Essentially, if you want to ask if there are performance differences between version N and version N+1, you can check the aggregate performance vs. the aggregate count of new vs. old browser version, and with 8K samples, you're able to draw reasonable conclusions. And in general you can do this across dimensions or combinations of dimensions that might normally contain enough pieces of info to identify a single user.

This is essentially the same idea as differential privacy, although without the same mathematical precision that differential privacy can provide. (By this I don't mean that the data can be re-identified, just that differential privacy can be used to provide tighter bounds on the anonymization, such that the statistical inferences you can gather are more precise. k-anonymity is, perhaps, a less mathematically elegant tool).

Specifically, I'm describing k-anonymity using x-client-data as a Quasi-identifier in place of something like IP or MAC address. You can find those terms in the "See Also" section of the differential privacy wiki page you linked. Google is mentioned in those pages as a known user of both differential privacy and k-anonymization in other tools.

Hopefully that answers your question of why Google would want such a thing.

> simply saving the data gives Google the option to use it as an identifier in the future.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that they're currently in violation of the GDPR, which is what a number of people keep insisting. I'm not claiming that it's impossible for Google to be doing something nefarious with data (although I will say that in general I think that's an unreasonably high bar). Just that the collection of something like this isn't an indication of nefarious actions, and is in fact likely the opposite.

Re: Google tracks individual users per Chrome installation ID

#583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the whole point. Using any Google service means they can easily personally identify you, that's what the privacy policy should explain. That's their policy towards privacy, you don't have any. For some reason I can't fathom, you claim mentioning this in their privacy policy "would not have any purpose". Instead of honesty, their privacy policy is a wonder of public relations where it seems like they care deepl…

We disagree about the purpose of privacy policies. I believe that privacy policies should describe how data will be used, not how it could be used. I just don't think a policy describing how data could be used is very useful, because it's going to be the same for all services. Under this formulation, Google's policy is (presumably, lacking any data to the contrary) honest with respect to this value.

"I believe that privacy policies should describe how the data will be used, not how it could be used."

Google's policy does not tell the user how her data will be used by Google's customers. The policy states Google will use the data to "provide better services". That is deliberately vague. That is the "purpose", but how exactly is the data used to achieve that purpose. There are no specifics with which a user could object.

Google does not only serve the search engine user, the email user, the YouTube user, etc. Its business is not free services. As such the policy is misleading as to what are the "Services" it may use the data to improve. Google's business is providing online ad services.

The truth is that Google collects data to provide better services to advertisers. The policy reads as if it only collects data to provide better services to users. The "free" services are just bait to draw users in. The data is collected to improve online ad services.

Re: Google tracks individual users per Chrome installation ID

#584
post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must be a google toolhead employee not to see how evil they’ve become

This breaks the site guidelines. Please don't do that, regardless of how wrong someone else is or how bad another comment is. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Ok, will try to fit within the guidlines

Re: Google tracks individual users per Chrome installation ID

#585
post #563

As long as web developers continue to create (app-)sites that only work in the latest versions of Chrome(and Chromium-ish) browsers, giving users little effective choice over what browsers they can use, this sort of abusive behaviour will continue. The sort of "feature-racing" that Google engages in is ultimately harmful for the open web. Mozilla struggles to keep up, Opera surrendered a while ago, and more recently,…

> Making sites that are usable in more browsers than the top 2 (or 1) will weaken the amount of control that Google has You do realize/remember that Google is also a search-engine company, one that only stands to benefit (in terms of increased capability of advertising targeting) from a web that's simpler, and therefore more machine-legible.

I’m not so sure about that. Google has the resources, a simpler web makes it easier for competitors, seems like google is already quite competent at machine reading just about everything, even sometimes things that you can’t fond/visit. Domination by web-apps is the equivalent to widening the moat.

Re: Google tracks individual users per Chrome installation ID

#586
post #554

As long as web developers continue to create (app-)sites that only work in the latest versions of Chrome(and Chromium-ish) browsers, giving users little effective choice over what browsers they can use, this sort of abusive behaviour will continue. The sort of "feature-racing" that Google engages in is ultimately harmful for the open web. Mozilla struggles to keep up, Opera surrendered a while ago, and more recently,…

I wish, but that's not what most people want. Hell, it's not what designers want. Thinking back to the Myspace days, people would have the worst websites imaginable. Granted, that was all done with little more than HTML and javascript, but I have little doubt what they would have done with things like HTML5 and even more javascript.

There's got to be a balance between every website looking exactly the same and fading out of my memory with one identical hamburger menu after another and dancing babies on geocities.

Re: Google tracks individual users per Chrome installation ID

#587
post #563

As long as web developers continue to create (app-)sites that only work in the latest versions of Chrome(and Chromium-ish) browsers, giving users little effective choice over what browsers they can use, this sort of abusive behaviour will continue. The sort of "feature-racing" that Google engages in is ultimately harmful for the open web. Mozilla struggles to keep up, Opera surrendered a while ago, and more recently,…

> Making sites that are usable in more browsers than the top 2 (or 1) will weaken the amount of control that Google has You do realize/remember that Google is also a search-engine company, one that only stands to benefit (in terms of increased capability of advertising targeting) from a web that's simpler, and therefore more machine-legible.

It's fine for Google to benefit from things that everyone benefits from.

Re: Google tracks individual users per Chrome installation ID

#588
post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a common strategy of big players at any industry. First, they do some dirty thing to gain a competitive edge when the industry is still new and unregulated. Later they develop an alternative way to achieve the same competitive edge, and then criticize other players for doing an old way, saying they should be "mature and responsible".

See also first world countries industrializing/modernizing & becoming rich/lifting people out of poverty using industrial techniques that pollute heavily, then "going green" and criticizing other players (India, China) for doing the same thing, saying they should be "mature and responsible".

They should be mature and responsible, the west should have been, too, and has a long way to go.

We both are probably distant cousins due to our relation through Ghengis Khan, but that doesn't mean I should be bitter that I can't make my fortune by pillaging half the world like my distant ancestor did to great effect. It might be easy to make a fortune pillaging, but that doesn't mean I deserve to pillage because someone else did (or does), and I think I am in the right in detesting the scattered bands of warlords left in this world who do make their living by pillaging.

Re: Google tracks individual users per Chrome installation ID

#589
post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the concern is that this disarms Google's competitors while keeping them fully-armed. Ads are a business, and they are Google's business. They are how they make money. And like all businesses, they are competitive. Tracking is a way to make more money off online advertising. By removing tracking from their competitors while keeping it for themselves, Google stand to make a lot of money off this change. Their…

Just yesterday I had to disable anti fingerprinting I'd enabled in Firefox because despite having a solid IP and and existing cookies to login to Google, it's security system rejected me, even after answering security questions. Turn off fingerprinting and I could log in. So, this is a round about way of agreeing with the hidden dark patterns that Google are bringing to the web. It must stop.

All the more reason to keep bad actors in containers isolated from the rest of your web browsing. Google can fingerprint me all they want if that gets their rocks off, all they'd see is my gmail inbox that they see anyway.

Re: Google tracks individual users per Chrome installation ID

#590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See also first world countries industrializing/modernizing & becoming rich/lifting people out of poverty using industrial techniques that pollute heavily, then "going green" and criticizing other players (India, China) for doing the same thing, saying they should be "mature and responsible".

"Going green" is a relatively new concept, even for Western countries. By 1960 the West was seriously polluting its environment, but also extremely affluent and highly developed. There was far more of a gap between the average American and someone in Asia or Africa compared to today. The West polluted the developing world in the same way it polluted the Hudson or Cuyahoga. It's not really about pulling up the ladder,…

> It's not really about pulling up the ladder, but a recognizing that growth doesn't have to mean completely destroying the planet.

It's not recognizing anything, because it hasn't been demonstrated that growth is still compatible with not completely destroying the planet. It's deciding to not destroy the planet, and if that means pulling up the latter then golly gee sucks to be anyone who isn't up yet. We sure hope there are other ways up, but that's not much consolation.

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