Live data from Hacker News

Google tracks individual users per Chrome installation ID

github.com

571–580 of 642 posts

Re: Google tracks individual users per Chrome installation ID

#571
post #567
post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the concern is that this disarms Google's competitors while keeping them fully-armed. Ads are a business, and they are Google's business. They are how they make money. And like all businesses, they are competitive. Tracking is a way to make more money off online advertising. By removing tracking from their competitors while keeping it for themselves, Google stand to make a lot of money off this change. Their…

Much of such discussions demonize the company, but we need to look broader. Google is a public company and its shareholders, since they share the company, are also to be pointed out. Discouraging such behaviour is better done by the shareholders by dumping shares since Google could very well argue that if it didn't work to maximize ad revenue, it would not be operating according to fiduciary responsibility principles…

I'm with you on the shareholders being complicit in the behaviour (through ignorance or inaction in a lot of cases), but unfortunately I'd guess 90% of said shareholders wouldn't be aware of the scummy tactics Google have undertaken, similar to Microsoft I'd say, outside of the IT/HN realm.

It's unfortunate. Profit of their shares is the only thing a lot of people look at (and willfully ignore anything else unless it slaps them in the face/becomes a major mainstream media event).

Re: Google tracks individual users per Chrome installation ID

#572
IP address inspection has been getting a large amount of attention recently. It is considered a privacy violation, yet it is required to determine location, so devs know which privacy laws apply.

GDPR only applies in Europe, and CCPA only applies in California. How is one meant to determine which set of laws applies inside a piece of software without being able to determine location?

A waste of time (don't bother) answer is : Just apply maximum privacy everywhere and you won't have to worry about it... The response is always going to be - Many free tools you use are funded by advertising etc and advertising depends on being able to know where someone is, at least to the country level. Cutting off location and therefore revenue is not going to give people the software they want.

Other facts that usually matter - only 1-2% of people want to pay for private software. Everyone else wants the free option. Source : my apps.

How is software meant to determine location?

Re: Google tracks individual users per Chrome installation ID

#573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're still missing the point. Google transmits personal data to their servers without user consent. The value of x-client-data is personal data, because it is associated with an IP address during transit, due to how HTTP requests work. The nature of the data, what is being done with it on the server, and the location of the server are all irrelevant in this instance, the only important part is that personal…

> The value of x-client-data is personal data, because it is associated with an IP address during transit, due to how HTTP requests work. This is not correct. The x-client-data is not personal data. x-client-data associated with an IP address is personal data. As soon as you separate the client-data from the IP, the client data stops being personal data. IOW, the tuple (x-client-data, IP) is personal data. But x-clie…

> That would make the existence of anonymous data practically speaking impossible to have on the web

For almost every type of data that is true. Transforming or substituting data doesn't make it anonymous; the patters in the data are still present. To produce actually anonymous data you have to do what the GDPR instructed: corrupt the data ("rendered anonymous") severely enough that the "data subject is ... no longer identifiable". You need to do something like aggregate the data into a small number of groups such that individual records no longer exist. Techniques like "differential privacy" let you control precisely how "anonymous" your data is by e.g. mixing in carefully crafted noise.

> 8192 bucket

While others have pointed out that this isn't actually limited to 13 bits of entropy for most people, there are at least two reasons that field is still very personally identifying. First, "x-client-data on its own" never happens. Google isn't wasting time and money implementing this feature to make an isolated database with a single column. At no point will the x-client-data value (or any other type of data they capture) ever sit in isolation. I used the IPv4 Source Address as an example because it will necessarily be present in the header of the packets that transport the x-client-data header over the internet. Suggesting that Google would ever use this value in isolation is almost insulting to Google; why would they waste their expensive developer time to create, capture, and manage data that is obviously useless?

However, lets say they did make and isolated system that only ever received 13 bit integers stripped of all other data. Surely that wouldn't be personally identifiable? If they store it with a locally generated high resolution timestamp they can re-associate the data with personal accounts by correlating the timestamps with their other timestamped databases (web server access logs, GA, recaptcha, etc).

> you'd need to describe a scheme such that, given an x-client-data header, and only an x-client-data header, you could identify one (and only one) unique person to whom that header corresponds

You should first describe why google would ever use that header and only that header. Even if they aren't currently using x-client-data as an identifier or as additional fingerprintable entropy, simply saving the data gives Google the option to use it as an identifier in the future.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT19VwBAqKA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_privacy

Re: Google tracks individual users per Chrome installation ID

#574

Ahh the good ol HN "stop using Google and start using Firefox" advertisement. It's a bit odd to see this in every Google thread. Btw, Firefox is too slow.

You must be a google toolhead employee not to see how evil they’ve become

This breaks the site guidelines. Please don't do that, regardless of how wrong someone else is or how bad another comment is.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Google tracks individual users per Chrome installation ID

#575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > Experiments may be further limited by country (determined by your IP address) > They even admit to inspecting the IP address... I don't think that sentence admits what you say? Chrome could be determining which experiments to run client-side. Of course, when you visit a Google property, they needs must inspect your IP address to send a response to you, at a minimum. That goes for any site you might choose to visi…

So if you use a VPN service for example, they still know who you are because of this. I would say even if you’re visiting in private mode. I see your point, but I also see how this will keep you identifiable.

I don't math very much, but I would guess the intersection of these sets of people is nil: people who 1) use VPN to avoid tracking by Google 2) still log in to Google services from one of their networks and not the other 3) use the same Chrome profile on both. But suppose some small number exist who adopt this illogical and contradictory pattern of behavior. If Google is using this token for the purpose of tracking this tiny set of people when the vast majority could be tracked more easily via conventional means, it would imply that they are far more competent than I give them credit for.

Re: Google tracks individual users per Chrome installation ID

#577

As long as web developers continue to create (app-)sites that only work in the latest versions of Chrome(and Chromium-ish) browsers, giving users little effective choice over what browsers they can use, this sort of abusive behaviour will continue. The sort of "feature-racing" that Google engages in is ultimately harmful for the open web. Mozilla struggles to keep up, Opera surrendered a while ago, and more recently,…

HTML is not enough. It’s why templating languages / libraries were invented, and it’s why SPA’s are so popular. There’s a difference between “sites” and applications. The web has been trending toward supporting applications more and more for a very long time. The only thing that will make people who want to preserve the content-web happy is if we split the protocols somehow, and that will never happen. This is not li…

I havent had js on by default in years. Using a js enabled browser is a drastically worse experience.

suckless surf lest you enable js with a hotkey on a per-process basis if you really want it for something, but 90% of the time, I just close the tab that wants to waste my time.

Re: Google tracks individual users per Chrome installation ID

#578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> says that specific header can't be used to identify you That's not what it says. It says the header won't contain PII, which is true. It can be linked to PII, but so can literally every bit of information you send to Google while logged into or otherwise using their services. A disclaimer to this effect would not have any purpose.

If I log in to my Google account once, they can associate that browser id with my account. Even if I log out, clear my cookies (and probably use the incognito mode), Google will be able to identify and follow me all over the Web. I don't know about your PII thing, but it's personal data under the GDPR.

You can't even login into gmail, at least from firefox in incognito mode.

Re: Google tracks individual users per Chrome installation ID

#579
post #503

Everybody imagine going back 15 years and tell yourself that you're using a web browser made by the parent company of DoubleClick. Your 15 year ago self would think you're a moron (assuming that 15 years ago you were old enough to know what DoubleClick was).

Well, it depends. Do I get a funny animation following my cursor if I do it?

Kind of true. The whole internet was much more of a toy back then. Tracking was not viewed so maliciously as now. Heck I might have even been convinced by a hard sell "this will help your favorite sites maximize their revenue".

Re: Google tracks individual users per Chrome installation ID

#580
post #45
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you talking about the same thing? Because the identifier above is claimed to have 13b of entropy. Is there another high entropy identifier?

13b, if usage statistics are disabled (not the default). Otherwise, unspecified amount of entropy.

Actually, the low entropy provider is used for any field trials that get included in the header.

See: https://cs.chromium.org/chromium/src/components/variations/v...

Post reply on HN