Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#581

Post by michaelmrose » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 8:24 PM UTC

michaelmrose wrote: post #568

sintaxi wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're too focused on money and you may be misunderstanding my point. Price is always based on supply and demand so the nicest house is going to command the same price on the open market regardless how nice it is. The same is true for low end housing. Keep in mind its production which improves peoples life. Money is just a tool to help an economy function. Think of it like a hockey team. If your 4th line Center isn't…

Price is determined by more than just supply and demand. The price demanded is determined partially by scarcity and partially by the wealth required to create a good. The math says you fix housing affordability by building more mansions. Poor people can't afford them and the actual price change is so small for the massive investment that its insane. Building enough to push 250k houses to 200k would cost more money th…

Obviously this was meant to be the math says you can't fix housing affordability by building more mansions.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#582

Post by dennisgorelik » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 8:54 PM UTC

boulos wrote: post #428

A few threads seem to believe that the minimum wage is high enough / need not be increased. I don’t actually want to argue about mechanism, but think that it’s imoortant to note that the math says our (current) minimum wage is demonstrably insufficient to remove poverty. With the Federal minimum wage currently at $7.25/hr, that’s just $15k/year at full-time. That puts many minimum wage workers below many countries’ a…

> minimum wage is demonstrably insufficient to remove poverty

Minimum wage is insufficient yet to put all population into poverty.

If we increase minimum wage to, say, $100/hour, then 99% of population would be not able to find any jobs [that pay minimum wage or more] and that would, effectively, put 99% of population into poverty.

With current $7.25/hr minimum wage only few percent of population cannot find jobs because they do not have enough skills to get minimum wage job.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#583

Post by richpimp » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 8:55 PM UTC

mcny wrote: post #580

richpimp wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Refrain from having children if you cannot afford to have children. I'm 100% on board with this. You can make a lot of mistakes in your life and still pull yourself up if you're unencumbered by marriage and kids. I know from personal experience. I was deep in debt and making poor life decisions in my twenties. It took until until my thirties to get my act together. It was hard, but would have probably been impossib…

> I think it's more important to wait until you're emotionally mature and financially secure enough to do it. If it's not for you, by all means, don't have kids. Being on the other side of it now, though, I can say that it's quite a transformative experience. >> financially secure I think the point of the article is that based on the current trajectory, a big chunk of the population will never get there. I just searc…

I wonder, though, what percentage of those people already have families. I was part of that demographic not that long ago. Had I needed to support a family then, I'd likely still be in that demographic. No doubt, many people will not be able to pull themselves up regardless.

As an aside, my wife and I are good friends with a couple who only recently let us know that the husband (single earner for the family) has been unemployed since last year, and that they were completely broke and on assistance programs. We were floored, we had no idea, but in hindsight it explained some behaviors we'd witnessed. Anyways, I mention it because they have two young kids, and are trying to have another one. I just can't fathom how, given what they're going through, that having another child is in any way a sensible decision.

It's a sad state of affairs we find ourselves in. Housing prices are astronomical, healthcare costs keep increasing, all while wages remain stagnant. I have great empathy for what people are going through. I'm always mindful that you never know what can happen, one major health issue and it can all go away.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#584

Post by michaelmrose » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 8:56 PM UTC

skookumchuck wrote: post #351

michaelmrose wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People aren't rational you can't prove anything about anything by supposing that people make sense. A lot of the planet is just terrible. Of the places that aren't terrible many wont let you just sneak in and make a living if you live a cash and carry lifestyle. At best you can prove that the US is viewed as better than their current abode by people that don't live here. This is the definition of damning with faint p…

If you actually believe that, it will be come a self-fulfilling prophecy for you. And that will be your choice, as the US is full of opportunity. For example, you can get an MIT education for free on youtube, you can open a business on github for free, you can get funding for free from kickstarter, you can advertise for free on reddit, you can reach a worldwide market for free via the internet, you can write and sell…

Nobody said there wasn't wealth and promise for many in America. If you remember the first comment you replied to.

"But we also have lots of studies showing that the best of the lowest socioeconomic class almost never do better than the laziest of the uppermost socioeconomic class."

The entire point is that there is inequality of opportunity and unequal return on equal potential not that there isn't opportunity.

If you recall the post I replied to you said

"So why do penniless immigrants keep coming here? Do they know something poor people in America don't, or are they simply misinformed?"

This is terrible logic. This is a wealthy nation with lots to offer but people here have actual problems here too. You are glibly dismissing these actual problems with bad logic which personally makes me very angry. Who the heck are you.

Imagine if someone was talking about how racism was still a problem in America and you piped in with how your black doctor friend's practice was doing great and people shouldn't let negatives become a self fulfilling prophesy.

Well no shit but what we were actually talking about was inequality in America which we can actually do something about.

From the individual's prospective whatever society does the individual ought to do the best they can and for many decent lives await in spite of challenges. From the perspective of society we ought to try to maximize everyone's chances as best we can.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#585

Post by darawk » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 9:11 PM UTC

michaelscott wrote: post #453

ericd wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think the system should be structured so that no one is ever behind anyone else in the "rat race"?

From the starting point? Absolutely. That's essentially equality of opportunity in a nutshell. What you do with what you've got from a relatively equal starting point is up to you.

Some people have higher IQs than other people. Should we equalize that, too?

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#586

Post by darawk » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 9:12 PM UTC

zaarn wrote: post #560

darawk wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, that's true. Unfettered capitalism is not without its flaws. But it's still the only thing that has ever lifted large numbers of people from poverty in the entirety of human history.

It also kept large numbers of people on the verge of starving while working themselves to death.

It didn't keep those people anywhere. They were free to go live as hunter-gatherers whensoever they chose. They chose not to do that, because they believed that working was a better life.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#587

Post by DuskStar » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 9:38 PM UTC

ahakki wrote: post #540

goblekitepe wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the American philosophy is that people who make good decisions should not have to subsidize the poor decision making of others. America has a significant social safety net, but should responsible citizens pay for the upkeep of someone who has multiple children out of wedlock before the age of 20 without any means to support those children? Absolutely not. People must take responsibility for their own actions.

Kids don‘t ask to be born, they don’t choose poor parents.

Does that mean we should choose good parents for the kids? They didn't ask to have a crackhead for a father, after all.

But somehow I think you meant we should improve the lot of the parents in the hope that that would help the kids.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#588

Post by snowwrestler » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 9:46 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #550

snowwrestler wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're arguing for widely available free contraception and sex education, I'm with you. If you're just into shaming people for bad decisions, I'm not.

I don’t see any attempt to shame here. Having a kid is just a really bad financial decision. I should know, I have one! Would not recommend it for someone just starting their career or trying to climb out of poverty. I wish schools would teach about the massive financial consequences of raising a child. That would probably help immensely.

Without access to contraceptives and sex education, it is impossible for women to make a decision about whether or not to have a kid. They can only choose whether or not to have sex; pregnancy just sometimes happens if they do. Good luck getting a 16 year old (any 16 year old) to make good decisions about sex.

By sarcastically pretending that this 16-year-old made an affirmative choice to become a parent, the parent is actually trying to shame her for having sex as a teenager.

This goes directly to the heart of the article's point. Rather than confront a system that places some people at a disadvantage (lack of access to birth control or childcare), it's easier to insinuate that a person's hard life is solely the result of their own bad decisions.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#589

Post by bsder » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 10:18 PM UTC

skookumchuck wrote: post #81

bsder wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where people wind up is very much a consequence of their choices. True. But we also have lots of studies showing that the best of the lowest socioeconomic class almost never do better than the laziest of the uppermost socioeconomic class.

So why do penniless immigrants keep coming here? Do they know something poor people in America don't, or are they simply misinformed?

> So why do penniless immigrants keep coming here? Do they know something poor people in America don't, or are they simply misinformed?

My ancestors came here because life in the "Old Country" was so bad that braving the crossing of the Atlantic in cattle class on a ship, coming through Ellis Island, finding out that working in New York wasn't much better, and finally landing in the steel mills and coal mines of Western Pennsylvania was a step UP--but not by much.

Those same ancestors also stood in front of bullets from Pinkertons because that was preferable to allowing their working conditions to continue.

The fact that immigrants move is generally a sign of how shitty the place they are leaving is, not necessarily a sign of how good their destination is.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#590

Post by mcny » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 10:30 PM UTC

richpimp wrote: post #583

mcny wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's more important to wait until you're emotionally mature and financially secure enough to do it. If it's not for you, by all means, don't have kids. Being on the other side of it now, though, I can say that it's quite a transformative experience. >> financially secure I think the point of the article is that based on the current trajectory, a big chunk of the population will never get there. I just searc…

I wonder, though, what percentage of those people already have families. I was part of that demographic not that long ago. Had I needed to support a family then, I'd likely still be in that demographic. No doubt, many people will not be able to pull themselves up regardless. As an aside, my wife and I are good friends with a couple who only recently let us know that the husband (single earner for the family) has been…

> As an aside, my wife and I are good friends with a couple who only recently let us know that the husband (single earner for the family) has been unemployed since last year, and that they were completely broke and on assistance programs. We were floored, we had no idea, but in hindsight it explained some behaviors we'd witnessed. Anyways, I mention it because they have two young kids, and are trying to have another one. I just can't fathom how, given what they're going through, that having another child is in any way a sensible decision.

Something has to give. Perhaps people like me will offset others who want multiple children staying at home.

The meta is that in general people will want fewer children if they are better off. Does that mean poor people will have more children by design? Does that mean we can never get rid of poverty?