Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#541

Post by richpimp » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 3:24 PM UTC

mcny wrote: post #492

blacksoil wrote: post #141

The lady in the example is 33 has a diabetes, 3 kids to support, and presumably also have to support for her disabled mother. To make the matter even more sad she had no higher level education. I can imagine how hard and tough it is for her. But I don't think raising the minimum wage or a mandated salary increase/promotion is the real solution here. The real solutions would be to: 1. Educate parents on the importance…

Absolutely. Refrain from having children if you cannot afford to have children. People love to tell me I'm insensitive but I say the community needs to step up and do it part to help raise the children. We won't do that. We harp on about "personal responsibility". I think most* people who don't already have children (me included) should elect to not have children in the current situation. There is no benefit to havin…

> Refrain from having children if you cannot afford to have children.

I'm 100% on board with this. You can make a lot of mistakes in your life and still pull yourself up if you're unencumbered by marriage and kids. I know from personal experience. I was deep in debt and making poor life decisions in my twenties. It took until until my thirties to get my act together. It was hard, but would have probably been impossible if I had kids to worry about providing for. I'd even say that if you are financially able to support a family, I'd still wait until I get through my twenties before starting. With life expectancy up, there's no reason one can't wait.

> It needs to be the norm and not the exception to have zero children.

I get where you're coming from, and I don't look down on anyone who chooses to never have children, but I don't agree on this point. I know quite a few people who have chosen this lifestyle. I thought for a long time I'd never have kids as well. But now that I do, I couldn't imagine not having any. I think it's more important to wait until you're emotionally mature and financially secure enough to do it. If it's not for you, by all means, don't have kids. Being on the other side of it now, though, I can say that it's quite a transformative experience.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#542

Post by marknutter » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 3:25 PM UTC

m_fayer wrote: post #410

hhjinks wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does not absolve her of her irresponsibility. 99% of 16-year-olds realize having a kid is a bad idea. She made her bed, and now she sleeps in it. I can empathize with her situation, but I can not empathize with anyone saying she is not herself at least partly responsible.

A modern wealthy society that allows a bad-but-understandable move by a 16 year old girl to basically wreck her entire life, is a cruel society. Also don't overlook that America is also supposed to be a country of redemption and second chances, and that we as a society derive strength from that. We foster risk-taking, and we don't throw away people who seriously screw up - but rather capitalize on the fact that those…

America isn't a cruel society, it's a society that recognizes that life is inherently cruel. No amount of collective effort will ever change that, and so Americans focus on strengthening themselves in order that they will be better able to handle the cruelty of life.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#543

Post by dllthomas » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 3:26 PM UTC

flukus wrote: post #142

dnomad wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most notably immigration has a huge impact on housing and the ever increasing demand for it. Do you have any evidence at all for this claim or is this just something you made up out of thin air? I mean, no offense, but I remember when Brexiters were claiming the same [1] earlier this year and it was quickly proven to be nonsense. Maybe you can do a better job? [1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/13/hou…

> Do you have any evidence at all for this claim or is this just something you made up out of thin air? I need a citation for "more people == more housing demand"? I really don't care what academics say about the cause because they're divorced from reality. The reality is that as a single, well payed software developer with no kids I'm now on the downward slope of paying off the mortgage of my small studio apartment.…

> I need a citation for "more people == more housing demand"?

"More people => more housing demand", ceteris paribus, is trivial. And ceteris is probably sufficiently paribus that it follows even in reality. But your claim wasn't "more housing demand" but "a huge impact", and we've established nothing about sizes.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#544

Post by kingofhdds » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 3:27 PM UTC

ddalex wrote: post #253

kingofhdds wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing, unless you force a dog which hunted its bone to share it with one who slept the whole day, and call it "equality".

Or you can share 5% of your hunt to keep the lazy dog from attacking you while you sleep. Is it 'fair'? No. Is it a wise move? Maybe.

I agree, we can probably reduce tensions in society by some redistribution. But there's an important point to which too many people are blind: you cannot do it without limits. As more and more of the bone is taken away for "sharing", tensions start to grow again just from other side. And economic motivation is more, and more distorted leaving less bones for all.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#545

Post by ahakki » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 3:35 PM UTC

burfog wrote: post #95

Joeri wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In belgium the rising healthcare cost is almost entirely due to an aging population. To take care of those elderly you need nurses and care workers, 46000 extra per year for the coming decade. Meanwhile the schools only graduate 5000 per year, due to lack of interest by the native population because of the odd hours in nursing. The only way they’ve found to bridge the gap and take care of the elderly is bringing over…

There is "lack of interest by the native population" only because wages have been pushed down by people from the Philippines. Even with odd hours, people will gladly do the job if the pay is good. The elderly, with failing ears and minds, have enough trouble understanding the speech of the native population. Subjecting your elderly to nurses that can't be understood at all is elder abuse.

> Even with odd hours, people will gladly do the job if the pay is good.

Definitly true. However good pay costs a lot of money, so less care workers can be hired with the current budget. Either you have to spend more money or accept a reduction in the level of care.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#546

Post by richpimp » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 3:50 PM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #79

I broke out of poverty. Why can't they do it too? It was a simple thing for me, a combination of studying hard, focusing on my future and the death of my father. You see, my parents were both fishermen. It's a grueling, painful job that can destroy your body as you age leaving you with back problems and forcing you to retire early. It also paid poorly and had a lot of risks. Which unfortunately for us, resulted in th…

> For a lot of people it doesn't mean a single goddamn thing how hard you work or how hard you try.

From my viewpoint, breaking out of poverty comes down to these factors, in order of greatest to least importance:

1. Starting off on the right foot at an early age with regards to academic performance. Circumstances can make this tough. Lack of access to good schools, parents too tired to engage their children (e.g. reading to them and instilling academic curiosity) due to working long shifts at strenuous jobs, lack of attention span on the part of the kids, etc. But coming out of school with good academic performance opens so many more doors than not.

2. Choosing a career path that has good job availability and pay (software development, healthcare industry, etc.). You can be a master of your field or trade, but if there aren't enough positions to fill, or if competition is fierce, or if the industry pays poorly, then what's the point unless you have a deep love of it?

3. Luck. Being in the right place at the right time. Not having a major medical issue. I'd almost consider placing this first.

4. Working hard.

Working hard has its place, but it's last on my list. I've known many people who did the first three and don't work hard, and still remain employed since the job market is so good for what they do. We had a developer who was absolutely terrible, but he'd regularly job hop every 1 to 2 years and get more money in the process. To be fair, the software development industry has some serious flaws in its screening processes, but nevertheless, it seems you can't ever hire enough developers. I'm not condoning being a poor worker, but the reality is that, though hard work has its place, there are more important criteria in raising oneself out of poverty.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#547

Post by darawk » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 3:51 PM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #257

darawk wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but had you graduated with that debt, you would have been able to pay it off due to the salary you'd earn with your CS degree, right?

It's hard for me to say what would've happened as we drift further and further off into a pretty different hypothetical life but for reference it took me quite a long time post-grad to find a software job. It certainly wasn't due to a lack of looking, but rather that I lived in an area without many opportunities which meant that I would need to be relocated in order to kickstart my career. Eventually I landed on a gr…

Ya, but my point though is that if you were willing to, you absolutely could have worked hard and achieved all that you have. Yes, the chunk of money you received helped - but it didn't enable. You did what you did on your own, and you would have and probably would have done it with or without that money.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#548

Post by darawk » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 3:52 PM UTC

zaarn wrote: post #153

darawk wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that why hunter gatherer societies didn't have poverty? Is that why communist countries weren't poor? How is that working out for Venezuela? Capitalism is literally the only thing in human history that has ever lifted large numbers of people out of poverty.

Well, there was America's gilden age, which was also present in wide areas of Europe; Factory Owners would get all of the money and the workers got almost nothing. In Germany this was so bad that children over the age of about 12 generally worked in the factory along with the entire family to be able to affort a 10sqm single room housing in the city with 2 meals a day. The factory owners largely didn't care and cause…

Yep, that's true. Unfettered capitalism is not without its flaws. But it's still the only thing that has ever lifted large numbers of people from poverty in the entirety of human history.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#549

Post by snthd » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 3:52 PM UTC

DiffEq wrote: post #506

noobermin wrote: post #18

It's not like meritocracy is completely unrelated to real life, it matters in a certain regime. However, if like Vanessa, you're born to lesser circumstances, you just cannot escape poverty by just working harder. Similarly, if you are born to very well off standards, even if you're a dope and spend money from Dad's inheritance on cocaine, sure, you won't be successful but you'll still have a net of some kind. You ca…

You can escape poverty by working harder; it is just that working harder will not always work. It needs to be coupled with other virtues; of course the solution is not just simply to work harder, but to suggest that working harder is not a great deal part of the solution is false by every measure. Lets say this, you are born into a poor family - you still get to go to school that likely has a great library - the scho…

It's not as simple as cause and effect - there's feedback in effect.

Being poor changes how you think and who you are.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#550

Post by ryandrake » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 3:56 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #522

lr4444lr wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The diabetic Vanessa could have chosen not to have her first baby at 16.

If you're arguing for widely available free contraception and sex education, I'm with you. If you're just into shaming people for bad decisions, I'm not.

I don’t see any attempt to shame here. Having a kid is just a really bad financial decision. I should know, I have one! Would not recommend it for someone just starting their career or trying to climb out of poverty. I wish schools would teach about the massive financial consequences of raising a child. That would probably help immensely.