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Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with customers on my website

kapwing.com

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Re: Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with customers on my website

#581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey this is Julia, the post’s author. Sorry there’s no legend; I kind of included it in the title of the graph but orange was “Rude or trolling messages” and blue was “Sexual harassment or heckling”

Did you consider that this maybe not be representative of a systemic bias against women across all demographics, rather, the demographic that searches for video meme makers on the internet is skewed towards horny rude teenage boys that bask in anonymity?

No I do not. You should not draw rigorous scientific conclusions of any kind from this article, as I say in the post haha.

Re: Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with customers on my website

#582
A woman here is explaining that she prefers to interact anonymously or pseudonymously on the internet in order to avoid vicious abuse, amply demonstrated in screenshots. I find it very alarming that a significant part of the response here is to suggest that we should therefore eliminate anonymity and pseudonymity on the internet in order to force people to behave better.

This suggested measure would force this woman, and others, to face this vicious abuse all the time, with no escape except not to use the internet.

This seems like a bad idea. Problems like this are precisely why we must protect the rights to anonymity and pseudonymity, and indeed work to make them normative. (And that's without even getting into the fact that real-names policies have been conclusively shown not to make people behave better.)

Re: Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with customers on my website

#583
post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One that had a referrer as a thread on Hacker News kept insisting I couldn't be a real person, and wanting me to do basic math like 2+3 "before he would talk to me." It was gross. I'm a bit confused, is this an example of harassment? I'd be pretty sure I was talking to a bot in one of those chat popups as well.

Apparently in this context it is. Basically, if I read dang correctly it is not possible to disagree, because a) she identified as being female, and b) said it was gross, c) it was mentioned in the context of abuse. I feel like HN just jumped the shark.

No, what dang said was, "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize." No reasonable person could possibly interpret this as meaning, "it is not possible to disagree, because a) she identified as being female, and b) said it was gross, c) it was mentioned in the context of abuse."

You are just trolling, and I am only responding because dang's comment may not be visible to other people reading this thread.

Re: Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with customers on my website

#584

Amazing. The author spends a lot of time to tell us a very convincing story how sexism affects people in our industry, and the Hacker News thread is full of people rationalizing it. - it's only because people think you're a bot - it's because of your target audience - it's because chat widgets are annoying - you don't really have enough data to make any conclusions How much will it take to convince the average HN rea…

First things first: we do need some solution to the problem that she faced, and it is a real problem, that relates to gender. That said.

> How much will it take to convince the average HN reader that sexism actually is everywhere?

In a sense, it obviously is. But I want to reflect a bit on what that might entail.

You will note (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16390786) that the amount of sexist threads was 14 per week, which, in the period of 3 months with 2100 messages, gives about 1% of messages.

For reference, the DSM gives the prevalence of psychopathy at 3% for males and 1% for females (https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-people-are-psychopa...).

So, even though this sexism is a societal problem (in the sense that it exists in our society and is hard to extricate from comunities) it is not clear that sexism (or at least the sexism displayed in the article) is a problem with a social solution: teaching children (or people in general, as it may be) that this is not OK probably would not reduce the problem much further.

I predict, therefore, that no amount of society-wide measures against sexism can reduce this (very marginal!) behaviour (if the chat itself remains consequence-free for the users). That is: that fighting sexism is not gonna help this at all, and we'd need other, technical and local-to-the-website solutions.

> How much will it take to convince the average HN reader that sexism actually is everywhere?

That it is everywhere, in the sense that some (few) people bring it everywhere, not much. That it is everywhere, in the sense that all of society is guilty of it and each person should try to fix it in themselves, evidence of an entirely different sort.

Re: Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with customers on my website

#585

Amazing. The author spends a lot of time to tell us a very convincing story how sexism affects people in our industry, and the Hacker News thread is full of people rationalizing it. - it's only because people think you're a bot - it's because of your target audience - it's because chat widgets are annoying - you don't really have enough data to make any conclusions How much will it take to convince the average HN rea…

> it's only because people think you're a bot

I wonder if people are more likely to assume it's a bot when a female image is used - I've noticed that a lot of sites that are automated (or at least aren't so directly connected to a real person) use stock photos of female staff. Certainly not a justification, but could be a factor.

I wonder if there's any way you could control for that to get truer data (I'm not doubting the overall conclusion that sexism is rampant) - maybe explicitly say "This is/is not a bot" or trial photos that look like very stereotypical/generic stock photos?

Re: Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with customers on my website

#586
post #583
post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently in this context it is. Basically, if I read dang correctly it is not possible to disagree, because a) she identified as being female, and b) said it was gross, c) it was mentioned in the context of abuse. I feel like HN just jumped the shark.

No, what dang said was, "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize." No reasonable person could possibly interpret this as meaning, "it is not possible to disagree, because a) she identified as being female, and b) said it was gross, c) it was mentioned in the context of abuse." You are just trolling, and I am only responding because dan…

Ok, humor me. What is the strongest plausible interpretation of:

"One that had a referrer as a thread on Hacker News kept insisting I couldn't be a real person, and wanting me to do basic math like 2+3 "before he would talk to me." It was gross."?

(I am not trolling. Disagreeing with your point of view is not the same thing as trolling.)

Re: Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with customers on my website

#587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trolling behavior is generally against the rules of these sites. Often, it's actually a crime. If someone is harassing or threatening someone, just report them to the actual authority that will hold them accountable. If they don't do their jobs, by all means start calling their bosses, take the issue to twitter, write your Congressperson, etc.

Eh, it's pretty well known that the police will rarely, if ever, do anything about online stuff. They either lack the resources or the training to do so.

Sure. So let's hold law enforcement agencies and hosts of public forums (facebook, twitter, etc.) accountable for that.

Re: Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with customers on my website

#588
post #105

Amazing. The author spends a lot of time to tell us a very convincing story how sexism affects people in our industry, and the Hacker News thread is full of people rationalizing it. - it's only because people think you're a bot - it's because of your target audience - it's because chat widgets are annoying - you don't really have enough data to make any conclusions How much will it take to convince the average HN rea…

"Rude people are sexist" or "Sexist people are rude" is about the only conclusion you can draw here (maybe not even that, correlation != causation etc etc) It doesn't even come close to showing how "sexism is everywhere". For all we know the sample could be entirely edgy 12 year olds. Tell me again how this self-admittedly "non-rigorous scientific study" proves "sexism is everywhere"? It could easily be that more att…

> For all we know the sample could be entirely edgy 12 year olds.

If 12-year-olds are being sexist to be edgy, that's a problem in itself. Also, if it was people deliberately trying to be edgy, I'd expect way generic, or possibly racist, to be directed at Eric Lu, which does not seem to be the case.

Re: Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with customers on my website

#589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree strongly. And HN is proof that this isn't (entirely) true. In fact HN is a lot nicer than a number of verified name forums.

We need also to compare the user base ... The user's age on HN is in the ballpark of 25-40 years old, as it's a tech website. The website in OP is a meme generator, and I'm sure the ballpack would be 12-18 years. Now considering this, I agree with alkonaut.

The average age of any large group will be somewhere between 25 to 40.

HN has users well outside that range though, it is probably under-represented on the lower end and I would suspect over-represented on the higher end based on my IRL interactions with a fairly large number of HN'ers.

Re: Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with customers on my website

#590
I really don't blame her. Years of interaction with end-users on ww.com/camarades.com has taught me that if you do use your real ID and photograph you will most likely end up regretting it. Threats of rape and other niceties will be your lot if you use your real data. Also when you use fake data but at least you will have reduced the possibility for real harm considerably.

The same goes for your users, not just for the operators, especially in any context where the site operator allows or encourages end-user interaction.

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