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It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

jeffgeerling.com

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Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#571

Post by culopatin »

simonsan wrote: post #423
regexorcist wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm constantly surprised by just how bad macOS is as a Linux user. I currently have to deal with it sometimes as I run my local LLM server on it and it's painful. That said the hardware is great, I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used.

> I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used. Until you need to repair something or change some hardware ... Which is something the author of the article totally neglects, IMHO.

By the time something breaks, you’re so far behind in tech that you’re not buying parts for it anymore. I used to be in the “must be able to fix/upgrade” and then realized in practice it never happens.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#572

Post by bigyabai »

ildon wrote: post #561
herewulf wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, and this is also a big deal for longevity of your purchase. I have an iMac from 2012 and it's a beautiful piece of reliable hardware, with a beautiful screen. However, the software is stuck on some version of macOS from years ago and so more and more applications are refusing to install. It's on life support with Firefox ESR and MacPorts (just recently — was on Homebrew). And it works fine for browsing an…

While I don't dispute that Apple might or might not exploit its users via software, I believe some more credit is due to a company that can produce a piece of hardware like a personal computer that runs so smoothly after 14 years that its owner complains that more software updates should still be shipped to the device. I do not know of any other device that I could but as a consumer that would last that long. The fra…

> I do not know of any other device that I could but as a consumer that would last that long.

Are you serious? I literally have piles of 15+ year old x86 and PowerPC laptops that have perfectly functional hardware but no software support.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#573

Post by swiftcoder »

jnovek wrote: post #559
andybp85 wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in my day job doing enterprise web apps at a mac shop 16G became unusable for the engineers 3-5 yeas ago. i managed to weasel into them getting me a 64G M1 Pro in 2022 (now they won't buy us any higher than 32G). i'll probably still be using this thing in six years! to be fair, given the choice between a decade-old macbook and basically any current windows box with same specs, i'd take the macbook every time. but, if…

What web stuff are you guys working on that 16GB didn’t cut it a few years ago? I’m not questioning your statement, it’s just completely different world from my day-to-day and I’m curious.

In my case, the corporate MDM solution consumed so much resources that a 16GB MacBook was basically unusable for dev work (my personal Mac, also with 16GB in those days, was fine)

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#574

Post by einsteinx2 »

herewulf wrote: post #547
drnick1 wrote: post #137

The point of the Framework is to run Linux, and not to be part of Apple's ecosystem. I don't want my computer to update itself without my permission, report telemetry to Apple, upload anything to any "cloud" or request that I log into something. If you don't think this is a big deal, wait until an age or identity verification law is passed somewhere, and Apple will enforce it against your will, on the computer that y…

Absolutely, and this is also a big deal for longevity of your purchase. I have an iMac from 2012 and it's a beautiful piece of reliable hardware, with a beautiful screen. However, the software is stuck on some version of macOS from years ago and so more and more applications are refusing to install. It's on life support with Firefox ESR and MacPorts (just recently — was on Homebrew). And it works fine for browsing an…

That iMac should easily run Linux, why not install it? Also I don’t know what else to call hardware that’s still working great 14 years later except for longevity…

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#575

Post by swiftcoder »

kelnos wrote: post #487
dbg31415 wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve had MacBook Pros for as long as they’ve existed and, honestly, I’ve never needed a repair. The only real issue I’ve had was when I dropped one and destroyed the screen. It was covered by AppleCare, and Apple replaced it. I usually get a new laptop every 3 to 4 years and pass the old one to family members. My dad is still using one that’s about 10 years old and it works fine for what he needs. No issues. So the r…

Consider that maybe you've just gotten lucky? Laptop components do break. I haven't had Mac laptops in a bunch of years, but just off the top of my head I've had a keyboard key break (MacBook Air), and a mainboard die (MacBook Pro). But if you don't need repairs, you might want upgrades. I have a Framework 13 from 2022 and I expect I won't be buying a full new laptop for many many years. It's great that you've been a…

> Consider that maybe you've just gotten lucky?

It's not that uncommon experience with Apple hardware. I hand my old Macs off to family members, and currently in the house are 2, 4, 8 and 10 year-old MacBooks.

Only thing wrong with any of them is that the 10 year old one only runs about 20 minutes off the charger.

That said, I do skip all the problem models (no butterfly keyboard switches, etc), and ~12 years ago I did need a logicboard replacement under AppleCare

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#576

Post by MostlyStable »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #553
SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about the framework 12 is that they are giving you an open device that is meant to be upgraded. The value of that is different to everyone, but to place it side by side hardware wise and try to compare it as if it is equivalent on the software side to the closed source bullshit Apple has on offer feels at the very least a false equivalency

That's cool. Can I upgrade the display? That seemed to be a very weak point for the Framework 12 (for me anyway).

I don't believe that they have (yet) released a new display for the 12. But the 13 has gotten several upgrades, and I think the 16 just got it's first. So, most likely eventually yes.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#577

Post by wand3r »

simonsan wrote: post #423
regexorcist wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm constantly surprised by just how bad macOS is as a Linux user. I currently have to deal with it sometimes as I run my local LLM server on it and it's painful. That said the hardware is great, I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used.

> I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used. Until you need to repair something or change some hardware ... Which is something the author of the article totally neglects, IMHO.

The author does mention it, they just don't deeply analyze it. Frankly, it goes without saying. If you are considering a framework and reading articles about it, you almost certainly understand the tradeoff and it was mentioned in the article. Given the build quality of Apple and the option to lock in Apple care vs. the insane cost of computer parts, it isn't that important. Especially for an entry level laptop.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#578

Post by [deleted] »

joxdosba wrote: post #542
sfjailbird wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny how Apple has come full circle. Back in the 90s, when they were in deep crisis (before the second coming of Jobs), it was almost conventional wisdom that they should just stop selling hardware, and focus on their superior software. And here we are today when a lot of people lust for the hardware, but just can't deal with MacOS.

> And here we are today when a lot of people lust for the hardware, but just can't deal with MacOS Are there actually a lot of such people? Linux-on-desktop users are certainly loud, but also extremely uncommon.

[deleted]

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#579

Post by miyoji »

rangestransform wrote: post #348
benoau wrote: post #101

As nice as Apple's hardware is it's all undermined by who they are as a company, intentionally limiting their devices more and more while they relentlessly argue in courts and to regulators that we owe them more and more for using our devices. Rosetta 2's retirement announcement was when I realized I won't buy another Mac, I'm not interested in a computer that is preoccupied with stopping me from running software. Wo…

Forcing developers off of Rosetta 2 is a pro-consumer move because it gives the ultimate incentive for developers to modernize. I don’t want to use Lightroom (replace with whatever app is part of your workflow) through x86 emulation, I want Apple to bitch slap Adobe into porting it to native. Microsoft will be forced to expend resources to support x86 emulation for all of eternity. Apple throwing their weight around…

> I want Apple to bitch slap Adobe into porting it to native. Microsoft will be forced to expend resources to support x86 emulation for all of eternity.

I don't understand how you can say that Apple is more pro-consumer than Microsoft here, considering that Microsoft guarantees that no matter whether the vendor is unwilling, out of business, dead, or otherwise unavailable, you can still run your software. Apple says you need to go find someone to put tens to hundreds of man-hours into updating software from god-knows-when, and if you can't do that, you can just go fuck yourself.

You say yourself, Microsoft is willing to put in the work to ensure that their customers will be able to run their binaries forever. Apple spits in your face and you thank them for it.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#580

Post by holysoles »

clircle wrote: post #531
runeks wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said the hardware is great, I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used. I'm considering going this way on my M1 MBP. Is there anything you miss wrt. hardware compatibility?

Pro motion and battery life for me

+1 on battery life, though it has been improving: my idle battery usage is a lot better than a year ago.
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