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It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

jeffgeerling.com

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Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#481

Post by zamadatix »

selicos wrote: post #401
anon7000 wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple wants everything to be consistent. I have mixed feelings on it, because I do greatly despise windows, partly because of how inconsistent everything is. It’s chock full of half finished “migrations”. Like, programs still installing to “Programs Files (x86)” Which doesn’t matter but adds the tiniest bit of friction.

I think only 32bit apps install there. Ideally there is a 64bit version that continues forward. This is mostly an issue for me with enterprise/etc software I support at work. A key system I just moved to Server 2022 (on prem and Azure VMs) is 32-bit and still uses 32bit ODBC. It's a great app for our need. Just, still 32bit...

The intent is only 32 bit apps get installed there, but there are a few problems in practice. Dunno why you're currently downvoted about it though.

The first is needing to know whether the app was 32 bit or not is sort of the main annoyance with that itself.

The second is not every app follows this rule correctly, for whatever reason.

The third is there isn't a clear path for mixed apps, e.g. Steam. On Windows, Steam is still a mix of 32 bit and 64 bit components, so there isn't really a "clean place for it to go. You could have one option of putting Steam in one or the other and then mixing 32/64 bit apps in that folder & you have the other option of duplicating things, moving the initial problem an extra directory level deeper. 3b is that Steam installs the games under its folder, and the games you can install can be 32 bit, 64 bit, or a mix - duplicating the problem yet again. Until the start of this year, Steam still supported 32 bit Windows and, therefore, you could also have 16 bit games be installed.

There were reasons to do the split in the early 2000s but holding on to each decision like this for decades after seems to cause more pain than it ends up avoiding.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#482

Post by pjerem »

commandersaki wrote: post #415
regexorcist wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm constantly surprised by just how bad macOS is as a Linux user. I currently have to deal with it sometimes as I run my local LLM server on it and it's painful. That said the hardware is great, I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used.

Funny it’s the opposite for me. What if I want to switch between desktops of multiple users; easy with fast user switching, not really a thing in Linux (yeah I’m sure it can be hacked up, but bleh).

Wow, this feature is so broken on macOS (I have a family shared Air M2) since at least a full decade that it's really not what I would have take as an example.

OTOH, switching users on Gnome or KDE login managers is flawless.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#483

Post by wwalexander »

thefossguy69 wrote: post #477
wwalexander wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cannot be traversed with keyboard shortcuts Yes, it can: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/mac-window-tiling-i... You can define additional shortcuts in Keyboard settings: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/create-keyboard-sho...

>> > cannot be traversed with keyboard shortcuts > Yes, it can: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/mac-window-tiling-i ... The first link is about arranging/tiling the windows. There are zero keyboard shortcuts to move the focus from the window on left to the window on right. It looks like someone used the equivalent of monitor codenames for keyboard shortcuts. Some operations don't even have a keyboard shortcu…

> This is about setting keyboard shortcuts for custom actions for applications, not window traversal on the desktop.

The "All Applications" section lets you define global shortcuts. As long as there is a menu bar item for it (in this case, one from the Window menu) you can define a shortcut for it.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#484

Post by dbg31415 »

simonsan wrote: post #423
regexorcist wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm constantly surprised by just how bad macOS is as a Linux user. I currently have to deal with it sometimes as I run my local LLM server on it and it's painful. That said the hardware is great, I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used.

> I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used. Until you need to repair something or change some hardware ... Which is something the author of the article totally neglects, IMHO.

I’ve had MacBook Pros for as long as they’ve existed and, honestly, I’ve never needed a repair.

The only real issue I’ve had was when I dropped one and destroyed the screen. It was covered by AppleCare, and Apple replaced it.

I usually get a new laptop every 3 to 4 years and pass the old one to family members. My dad is still using one that’s about 10 years old and it works fine for what he needs. No issues.

So the repair argument is a bit hard for me to relate to. I understand things break. But I also think taking reasonable care of your stuff goes a long way. “A stitch in time saves nine,” right?

I guess I’ve replaced the feet on a few of them but that’s a $5 dollar kit from Amazon and a screwdriver and a little bit of glue…

And for normal wear and tear, like battery life, Apple laptops can get a battery replacement through the Apple Store for a pretty reasonable cost.

Anyway, Apple makes good product products that don’t really break from me or my family. I’ve been really happy with all their stuff.

I had way worse luck, for example, building a PC to game on. Two or three years and I had to replace the power supply and I think four years and I had to replace the SSD. Like those things were annoying. I’ve never had hardware from Apple go bad on me.

(Not since I had a Performa 5200 and they had to send somebody out to fix the logic board.)

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#485

Post by nottorp »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #447
altcognito wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is bizarro. With multi monitor sometimes I click windows and things don’t show. Dragging when more than one dialog is open is unpredictable. The corners are huge, even when maximized. Even the vaunted application bar is so weird - and windows is trying to copy it! Why can’t we use the entire bottom of the screen? Apps don’t show there anyway! You can’t get rid of it and replace it with something else? Just not all…

>You can’t get rid of it and replace it with something else? You can hide it. I rarely use it as I use a launcher.

> The corners are huge, even when maximized.

Upgraded to Mac OS 26?

> You can hide it. I rarely use it as I use a launcher.

Cmd+Space, type first letters of application name, enter.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#486

Post by nottorp »

daneel_w wrote: post #358
benoau wrote: post #101

As nice as Apple's hardware is it's all undermined by who they are as a company, intentionally limiting their devices more and more while they relentlessly argue in courts and to regulators that we owe them more and more for using our devices. Rosetta 2's retirement announcement was when I realized I won't buy another Mac, I'm not interested in a computer that is preoccupied with stopping me from running software. Wo…

But Rosetta was always meant to be just a temporary compatibility bridge. Surely you too would consider it kind of crazy if they were today, still, pouring time into maintaining Rosetta 1 for people wanting to run PPC software on macOS/x86. The first Arm build of macOS is now 6 years old, and when Rosetta 2 is ultimately removed from macOS in late 2027 it will have been available to us for close to 8 years. That's a…

... and this is how Apple proves it doesn't give a shit about gaming on their platform again ...

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#487

Post by kelnos »

dbg31415 wrote: post #484
simonsan wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used. Until you need to repair something or change some hardware ... Which is something the author of the article totally neglects, IMHO.

I’ve had MacBook Pros for as long as they’ve existed and, honestly, I’ve never needed a repair. The only real issue I’ve had was when I dropped one and destroyed the screen. It was covered by AppleCare, and Apple replaced it. I usually get a new laptop every 3 to 4 years and pass the old one to family members. My dad is still using one that’s about 10 years old and it works fine for what he needs. No issues. So the r…

Consider that maybe you've just gotten lucky? Laptop components do break. I haven't had Mac laptops in a bunch of years, but just off the top of my head I've had a keyboard key break (MacBook Air), and a mainboard die (MacBook Pro).

But if you don't need repairs, you might want upgrades. I have a Framework 13 from 2022 and I expect I won't be buying a full new laptop for many many years. It's great that you've been able to repurpose your old laptops for other family members, but every new laptop manufactured eventually becomes e-waste.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#488

Post by kelnos »

It's annoying how short-term people think sometimes.

With the Framework 12, sure, you're paying $750 up-front, but if you actually buy into the repairability/upgradeability angle (and if you don't, you maybe shouldn't be buying Framework), then in 3-4 years you might spend $200 or $300 on upgrades, and then in another 3-4 years another $200 or $300, and so on.

Meanwhile, with the Neo, you might be buying a whole new one at $600 every 3-4 years.

(Yes, I know how everyone says they've been using their Mac laptop for 15 years and it's still going strong, but if you're that person, then you don't care about upgradeability, so, again, you're probably not in Framework's target market. I also know lots of people who get a new Mac laptop every 3-4 years. And even a few who get one every 2 years, and that makes me sad.)

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#489

Post by liendolucas »

I think this is an unfair comparison. We are comparing a company valued on the order of trillion dollars with a very small company that is trying to put something different on the market.

And yes sure, Apple is going to do way better than probably lots of manufacturers out there.

From an OS standpoint is also a comparison that cannot be done. We are comparing MacOS with a Linux/Windows machine, which are all completely different beasts.

One last and not minor point. By choosing Apple you're choosing not only to be locked down at the OS level but also on the hardware, which at least for me is a huge "no".

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#490

Post by wavemode »

ramijames wrote: post #399
cardanome wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is all true but even as a hardcore Linux and Thinkpad user, I have to admit it is a hard sell when no one can offer the quality of Apple. Apple is the only hardware company where you can buy a product and it is good hardware wise. Sure other companies have flagship offerings but with apple you get a really good base model. And that is where it breaks down for me. Pay 20% more for freedom? Yes, absolutely. But pa…

I think that people aren't seeing what Apple is doing through the lens of efficiency, and the wider impact that has on their software and hardware. Them not having to support 30+ year old software means that they can be more nimble and make better hardware choices. Look at the mess that Microsoft has made for itself by setting the requirement that software made in the 90s must still run on modern OSs and hardware. It…

I disagree completely. Backwards compatibility has precisely nothing to do with why Windows is terrible nowadays.

And that's also entirely orthogonal to hardware - the hardware battle between ARM Mac and ARM PC is really a battle between Apple and Qualcomm (Apple won).

In hindsight, rather than relying on Snapdragon, Microsoft should have started designing their own high-efficiency ARM SoCs 15 years ago like Apple did. But I mean, everything is clear in hindsight isn't it.

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