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Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

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Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#571

Post by Der_Einzige »

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #211
wazdra wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Valuing how others remember you is definitely a motivation in life for many. I respect that it is not your own, respect that it may be mine. It is by no means "absurd".

It is absurd because it places subjective opinions over objective goods. This is the vice of “human respect”. Human beings do not have a final say about others. They can opine, but opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one. Sure, it is nice to be remembered well, if you deserve it, but I do not live for the opinions of others. This is slave mentality and pathetic. I care about being good, and if I am hated for th…

You were so close to genuine self-ownership in this post, especially with decrying slave morality - than you ended by getting spooked all over again.

You might enjoy “the unique and its property” by Max Stirner. An excellent philosophical book and especially relevant given that Alzheimer’s takes away the self…

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#572

Post by Der_Einzige »

Noaidi wrote: post #507
tsimionescu wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever cared for someone with late stage Alzheimer or other forms of severe dementia? The reality of it is that a person who suffers from this is simply not the person you knew, by any measurable definition. They don't remember you, they may well fear and hate you. They change moods at a moment's notice, they live in a state of either lethargy or accute anxiety, suddenly waking up in a place that they don't re…

> Have you ever cared for someone with late stage Alzheimer or other forms of severe dementia? Yes. Did I say that it was easy? Did I say that the spiritual way through all this was just pretending like everything is OK? No, it’s a very difficult process. Avoiding suffering is impossible. Choosing to die to avoid suffering does not guarantee non-suffering. Only understanding suffering and where it originates can get…

“Choosing to die to avoid suffering does not guarantee non-suffering.”

Either it does or you’re claiming to be religious and implying you know for sure what happens after we die.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#573

Post by Der_Einzige »

jonhohle wrote: post #265
darkmighty wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like life stops when someone (with a grave an irreversible condition that causes suffering) dies. It goes on with the young generations (i.e. the billions of them!). I think too much clinging to a single life causes the whole (which is more important) to suffer. That's not to say we shouldn't value and respect elders, but clinging to life excessively is ignorant and potentially cruel, in my humble opinion. I…

The alternative being when someone becomes inconvenient to others we should encourage their death? What good is compassion or empathy when the lesser in society could just go off and die, right? Why stop at incurable diseases? Political opponents, coworkers, nasty service workers, double parkers, lawyers, and many other groups cause a lot of anguish and suffering.

Right now, the political party in power openly wants undesirables, especially homeless people, to simply drop dead and stop bothering everyone else.

The relevant word during our fascist rise is schadenfreude. People not only want to see them drop dead for having the audacity to be dirty and unhoused - they want to see them suffer, hard, the entire time.

You gotta find a way to stop making the inflicting of pain on others pleasurable.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#574

Post by Der_Einzige »

mock-possum wrote: post #341
sph wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have this childhood memory of my neighbour's dog, that grew old and one day decided to go out in the woods and die peacefully. They found it a few days later. I wish to remain so lucid when the time comes, that I can go sit under a tree and let myself go like that old dog. Perhaps I should leave a note.

I always think of that scene from Donnie Darko - where he says when his dog got sick, she went to hide under the porch. “To die?” His therapist prompts him. “To be alone ” he corrects her pointedly. [0] That’s kind of what I want when I die too - I don’t think I want to be around other people when it happens. I want to have my final moments to face death on my own, without feeling like I have to perform for other peo…

Wow I’m the total opposite. I’m very annoyed to be around others most of the time, but upon dying I can’t imagine doing it alone or without the help of loved ones.

A lot of motivation to be risk averse with my physical body in this life comes from a desire to make it to old age. Furthermore, I instantly understood why having children was good when I realized that they are your insurance that you’ll (usually) have someone to help comfort you on your deathbed who is themselves still lucid.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#575

Post by jncfhnb »

Noaidi wrote: post #502
jncfhnb wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Without suffering, we would not know joy and without joy we wouldn’t know suffering. So these are two sides of the same coin, do you see that? Bullshit argument. The suffering that many people experience is profound. These people don’t have a more profound experience of joy than those whose lives are chill. And the happy lives of people who haven’t suffered are not better because the sufferers have felt worse. > I…

> The suffering that many people experience is profound. These people don’t have a more profound experience of joy than those whose lives are chill. And the happy lives of people who haven’t suffered are not better because the sufferers have felt worse. Some people have great suffering. Some people have small suffering. But the suffering is the same, and the source is the same. You don’t need great suffering to under…

Or maybe your brother was guilted into suffering because you injected a greater fear into his life and your faith is fiction. Maybe your faith isn’t fiction but suicide is ok and Jesus tells him it was completely unnecessary to oppose his own reasoning at the pearly gates (or whatever your faith is).

There is no clear answer that extending life is for the best. Not unlike a painful, fruitless intubation that has no chance of providing quality life-hours.

Not saying this is true of your brother but a lot of people are content to say “good job team, he will suffer tremendously, but he is alive!” And that’s fucked up.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#576

Post by randcraw »

teiferer wrote: post #287
lordnacho wrote: post #3

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

> it totally sours everyone's view of you. That's just as much failure of everybody as it is of him. This was dementia speaking and society needs to learn that. You wouldn't tell somebody with a broken leg to get it together and it's just their personality that they can't walk. Nor should you treat dementia like that. Yes, people seem to shift personalities and anger others. But those others need to understand that i…

Imagine that the illness in question was unremitting and excruciating (unlike a broken leg), not only for you and the your loved ones, but everyone you come into contact with. And there's no hope it will ever get any better. That's what dementia usually becomes, and that inhuman level of misery can last for years until you finally slip away.

No animal other than man would consider perpetuating that state of decline. An elephant would simply wander away to die, freeing their community from their struggle to simply keep breathing.

I agree with Kahneman, at least that we all should seriously consider the cost of allowing that level of degeneration to consume us -- and more, the pain it inevitably will inflict on our loved ones -- and plan for it while we're still compos mentis.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#577

Post by randcraw »

danielscrubs wrote: post #551
lordnacho wrote: post #3

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

I hear quite a lot of these stories from my parents. Are these kind of personality shifting diseases, like Alzheimers becoming more common? And if so, is it because we take better care of our hearts and don’t die as early as?

Yes, I think that's right. The average age of death due to old age has climbed for over a century, probably due to greatly improved public health and personal medicine.

https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy

Because dementia and other neurodegenerative diseases take decades to manifest they've been especially hard to diagnose early and prevent or treat early, while cognition is still intact. Alas, I think that hasn't changed much in recent years, despite many scientists and businesses working toward that end.

Partly that's because few academic researchers can pursue a theory long enough in time to fully assess its potential, especially in combo therapies. Nor can the big pharma corporations who not only suffer from the same difficulty in long-term funding, but prefer the ROI of continuing treatments for disease to that of quick cures (or lifestyle advice). These are nowhere near as profitable a pill the patient must take for decades.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#578

Post by raw_anon_1111 »

Noaidi wrote: post #557
raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again being “selfish” is just restating the same. How is he withholding anything from anyone else by his decision.

Being selfish is being overly concerned with one’s self. He took his own life without regards to the consequence how anyone else would see it. He was also overly concerned with his self image as he stated in his letter. And he’s taken something, he’s taking his own life. Which I do not believe it was his to take.

How is own life not his to take?

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#579

Post by randcraw »

seneca wrote: post #253
le-mark wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is essentially what hospice is in the US. They stop curative treatment and focus on comfort. Then at the end when the person can no longer function to eat or drink they increase the morphine dose to a high level until they pass.

Right. It's a not-so-well-kept secret that hospice care is actually assisted suicide in disguise. It's done with a wink and a nudge, hiding behind the principle of double effect, but it's a mercy everyone knows is happening. It's sad that it has to be done covertly.

Of course, bring the patient home to die is no different. And nobody would call that assisted suicide.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#580

Post by randcraw »

iamacyborg wrote: post #27
kqr wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His next big book, Noise, is possibly even better.

I really didn't get on with that one. Felt very much like a book that could have easily been shortened down to an essay and suffered for the additional length.

The coauthors of Noise simply don't write as well as Kahneman did. The lack his focus and tight narrative thread.
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