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Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

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Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opposite of what you're saying is "perfection is the enemy of progress", so let's move past them. I'm asking for more than "this is not the way". What is the way? How will we do this? This is critical, and we've failed to do anything since early 2022. Democrats are clearly not at all interested. My (Dem) congressman responded directly to my enquiry with "fixing section174 just wouldn't be good optics". I agree re…

Not in a way that makes us even easier to hate, for a start. You really want a big noisy political carveout in what is already being called the largest upward wealth transfer in history? You want to find out what it's like to be in a line of work that has the reputation for having to steal from the American people to survive? We have enough of that reputation already. If you want a better answer, tell me who our frie…

>Not in a way that makes us even easier to hate, for a start. You really want a big noisy political carveout in what is already being called the largest upward wealth transfer in history? You want to find out what it's like to be in a line of work that has the reputation for having to steal from the American people to survive? We have enough of that reputation already.

This is bullshit. The carveout already exists and it's designed to attack software engineering specifically.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> are the legislature and executive branches not independent? I am not sure how this can be a serious question right now, in 2025. However, in 2017 the capitulation of power and authority by Congress was less obvious. What was still true was that the Republicans who controlled Congress and the President all wanted a large tax cut for higher income Americans, and were thus aligned on the goal. Since the President does…

>I am not sure how this can be a serious question right now, in 2025. it was a serious question. I did know that the republicans are in the majority in both the lower and upper houses, after the recent US election. but was not sure if that was the only factor involved. I am not from the US. just an interested observer. hence my question.

the two branches are theoretically independent. what is happening right now is that, depending in your POV:

1) the Republican majority in both the house and senate are entirely on board with all of the Trump administration's actions, and thus have no reason to pass legislation or act in any way separately from the executive branch.

2) the Republican majority in both the house and senate are craven and terrified of the MAGA base that Trump commands, and in many cases in the house, are very much connected to it, so much so that they will do nothing to stand up to the executive branch even when it has crossed lines that have not been crossed before in many different areas.

Take your pick.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#573

A lot of people don't know what this Section 174 is about, so here's a brief explainer. Normally, when you have expenses, you deduct them off your revenue to find your taxable profit. If you have $1 million in sales, and $900k in costs, you have $100k in profit, and the government taxes you on that profit. Section 174 says you can't do this for software engineers. If you pay a software engineer, that's not "really" a…

say I work for a company for 5 years as a software developer, at $200k/yr the entire time. is this how it works: year 1: company deducts $40k: 1/5 of the salary for year 1. year 2: company deducts $80k: 1/5 of the salary for year 2, and 1/5 of the salary of year 1. year 3: company deducts $120k: 1/5 of the salary for year 3, 1/5 of the salary for year 2, and 1/5 of the salary for year 1. year 4: company deducts $160k…

I haven't looked at the tax rule in detail, but it looks like the "half year convention" for amortization applies.

The "half year convention" means that when you amortize a purchase, it's assumed you purchased it exactly halfway through the year, so you can only deduct half the amortization in the first year that you would normally (and the other half is in the year after the depreciation period).

So it looks like

year 1: 1/10

year 2: 1/5 + 1/10

year 3: 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/10

year 4: 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/10

year 5: 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/10

year 6: 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/5 (the last 1/5 being the other half from year 1 and the 1/10 from year 6).

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#574

A lot of people don't know what this Section 174 is about, so here's a brief explainer. Normally, when you have expenses, you deduct them off your revenue to find your taxable profit. If you have $1 million in sales, and $900k in costs, you have $100k in profit, and the government taxes you on that profit. Section 174 says you can't do this for software engineers. If you pay a software engineer, that's not "really" a…

> In the case of the $200k engineer, you deduct the first $40k in the first year, then you can expense another $40k from that first year in the second year, the third $40k in the third year, and so on through the fifth year. So eventually you get to expense the entire first year of the engineer's pay, but only after five years.

This actually understates the issue slightly. The amortization is calculated from the midpoint of the first tax year, so actually you only take 10% in the first year. Meaning it takes six years to get back to square one. In your example, you would only capitalize $20k in the first year, $40k for the subsequent four years, and then another $20k in the final year.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it applies to software engineers but under what definition of software engineer? This [1] is the only definition the code actually give. > (3) Software development > For purposes of this section, any amount paid or incurred in connection with the development of any software shall be treated as a research or experimental expenditure. 1. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/174 ----- Is a test or QA engineer c…

The IRS released guidance back in 2023: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-23-63.pdf It starts on page 23. Plenty of analysis online by tax firms but I'll quote from this one: https://insightplus.bakermckenzie.com/bm/attachment_dw.actio... > Generally, activities treated as software development for section 174 purposes include, but are not limited to, the following. • planning the development of the computer software…

So if you’re just maintaining a software, that’s already used then you’re good.

I used to support this change because I thought that it would fairly make the software industry like many other industries who have to pay this kind of amortization for R&D and I believe that there would be carve outs for small organization so that really large ones are the only ones who bear the cost.

I also believed it unlikely that this would be enforced or audited before there were such corrections or refinement to the original language.

So the way I viewed it was it’s basically a higher tax for giant software companies, but everyone else will be unaffected by it so we shouldn’t worry.

However, I also now support repealing or changing it because whether or not it has ever or was ever gonna be enforced or audited, it’s ended up causing a lot of disruption across the entire software industry. So much so that it actually looks more like an unfair penalty against software development than anything else now unfortunately.

So I’ll definitely be signing that little petition under my US corporation.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the reason property plant and equipment is amortized over time instead of expensed right away is to match up the tax deduction with the profit. If building a factory and filling it with robots will produce cars over a 10 year period in the future, it makes sense to subtract those costs over the same 10 year period. Matching profits with expenses is essentially why accounting was invented in the first place, so financ…

yeah but a high risk venture going from zero has exactly this problem: you might fail to build your product, and crazy enough the weight of having x% tax may have made the difference. you should be able to choose if you'd like to do immediate accounting or amortized accounting.

investors pay tax on profits, write off losses. The investors can add money in if they feel the idea is good. The tax code should not tilt the balance of the market.

people on this site complaining about lobbyists, regulatory capture etc, up and down the page, but wanting their own industry favored is a great illustration of the problems we face.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> maintenance activities after the taxpayer places the computer software into service This is the part that I think makes this whole jig of treating software development like a purely capitalizable expense so nuts. I previously worked at a public company that wanted software developers to treat as much work as possible as CapEx - it makes you look more profitable than you actually are, which is bad for taxes but good…

> What other sort of capital expenditure has you do releases every day, or requires 24/7 monitoring? Quite a lot of them actually. If I spend $$$$ setting up a car factory with a big production line, I'm going to have people monitoring it 24/7. If I build an airport, I'm going to have air traffic controllers working 24/7. And so on. Of course, the air traffic controllers didn't build the runway, and the construction…

> I'm going to have people monitoring it 24/7. If I build an airport, I'm going to have air traffic controllers working 24/7. And so on.

> Of course, the air traffic controllers didn't build the runway, and the construction crew don't direct air traffic, so the whole situation is much less ambiguous.

That is precisely why those salaries are NOT capex

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actively being discussed in Congress and is a part of OBBBA. " H.R.1990 - American Innovation and R&D Competitiveness Act of 2025 " https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/1990... > A bipartisan bill reintroduced in Congress last month could offer long-awaited relief to small tech companies hit hardest by an obscure federal tax change — one that many founders say is threatening their survival. >…

I'm confused. The requirement to amortize software engineer expenses was introduced in Trump's first term, but now he wants to revoke it in OBBBA? But only for 5 years?

It was passed in 2017 to go into effect in 2023. Trump now wants to suspend it until 2029. You may notice that in both cases it is being passed under a Republican-controlled executive but goes into effect under the next administration. This is the point.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#579
post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Other payroll employees" is doing a lot of lifting. The question is really, payroll is made up of builders, vs nonbuilders. Are devs different from other builders? The dirty secret is that they are not. Ford engineers, P&G food researchers, and architect salaries are capitalized just like Software development costs. But, in the case of software development, only those builders are getting a nice subsidy. A world whe…

>Ford engineers, P&G food researchers, and architect salaries are capitalized just like Software development costs. I'd say the majority of the posters on this thread who are answering questions (as opposed to asking questions) believe this is not the case. What is a good source for learning more about which categories of employee salaries are amortized? Besides becoming a CPA.

You can easily check that architects follow the same rules. When they work towards creating a new building their salaries are amortized

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#580

A lot of people don't know what this Section 174 is about, so here's a brief explainer. Normally, when you have expenses, you deduct them off your revenue to find your taxable profit. If you have $1 million in sales, and $900k in costs, you have $100k in profit, and the government taxes you on that profit. Section 174 says you can't do this for software engineers. If you pay a software engineer, that's not "really" a…

So it applies to software engineers but under what definition of software engineer? This [1] is the only definition the code actually give. > (3) Software development > For purposes of this section, any amount paid or incurred in connection with the development of any software shall be treated as a research or experimental expenditure. 1. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/174 ----- Is a test or QA engineer c…

Yes, this is an insane policy that reflects a complete ignorance of the on-ground realities. It was almost certainly only passed to help the 2017 tax bill's legislative scoring by the CBO.

I posted about this on Reddit the other day. https://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/1l3lo7j/the_hidd...

> Yeah, it's pretty much completely insane. Although in your example I think you accidentally picked numbers that actually work out precisely to zero dollars in taxable income. The company (if US-based) would have zero taxable income in the first year because they can deduct 1/5th of the salaries (because there is a five year amortization for US companies, and 15 year for foreign companies), so they would have $1m in gross income and $1m in deductions resulting in $0 in taxable income. But you can tweak the numbers a bit to get the result you intended, e.g., $1m in revenue and $2.5m in salary would result in $500,000 additional taxable income under the TCJA's version of Section 174 over the previous version of the code, even though in reality the company operated at a net loss. (edit, just looked this up and actually the amortization is dated from the midyear of the tax year in which the expense is incurred, which is also just fucking bonkers, but that means I was incorrect and your example does yield a taxable income, because the first year in your example would have $500k in deductions rather than the full 20% of the $5m expense, resulting in $500k taxable profit)

> All of which means that we treat R&D salaries less favorably than ordinary salaries, which are fully deductible in the year they are incurred. So our tax code now not only fails to incentivize R&D as under the previous R&D tax credit regime, it actively treats R&D employee salaries worse than non-R&D salaries. Even though R&D jobs are generally the highly skilled, well compensated, white collar careers we want to keep in this country.

> Section 174 also specifically designates all software development as R&D, so there's no way to develop software while claiming it is not R&D. I'm sure accountants have been jumping through hoops in their efforts to reclassify other kinds of product development jobs as not R&D, which is the exact opposite of what R&D tax studies used to do, which was to label as much employee compensation as R&D expenses as possible, because §174 and the related, intersecting provisions of §41 (the R&D tax credit itself), treated R&D salaries more favorably than other salaries. To a certain extent, the OP article understated how much of a swing this revision to the tax code is. It isn't just that we are treating R&D salaries worse than we used to, but that we are treating them even worse than we treat other kinds of salaries. Which is bizarre in a world where the policy objective is to retain R&D jobs in the US.

> The purpose of capitalization is to match expenses to benefits over multiple tax years. So that the tax payer can't take a huge tax deduction up front to generate an economically fictional loss in the short term on an asset that will generate income over the many years. Amortization forces them to deduct the expense of the asset over time as the benefit accrues over time.

> This model is a poor fit for software. Construction workers produce an asset with a generally predictable and known useful lifetime and long-term stable value that is independent of the business. You can always sell a building.

> Software, however, does not generally create value for very long if it is not subject to continuous development and improvement. It also decays very rapidly when not maintained (e.g. security patches), yet there is no distinction in the tax code between new development and production support/maintenance software development. Nor would any such distinction make any sense in reality, because unlike a physical asset software is subject to continuous change and there is little distinction between adding new features and maintaining existing features. This approach to capitalizing salaries contrasts with other capitalized assets like buildings, where most ordinary maintenance costs are deducted in the current year, not capitalized.

> The value of software can be much harder to predict than other capitalized assets. Both in terms of the demand, but also in terms of the technical capability to deliver the desired product. Which is why it's considered R&D in the first place: there is inherent technical risk in many if not most software projects which is not present in other kinds of economic activities that produce capitalized assets.

> Software is often so specialized that it cannot be sold on to a third-party without selling the entire business around the software, including existing customers, distribution and sales channels, and supporting software engineering staff. It's not a liquid, fungible, alienable asset the way other capitalized assets typically are. There is no real market for the source code to Reddit, for example, because there is nothing technically special about Reddit. The company's value derives from the user base, the community, and the data, not anything particularly special about its software.

> The tax code also confuses the output of the software development process with the value software can generate. Software developers produce code. Some of that code is valuable, much is not. Unlike with other capitalized assets, you can't know in advance whether the software you produce actually works 100% of the time, even with robust testing and QA. Whereas you can be quite certain that a building will continue to function as a building if it is built correctly. Many software engineers actually regard code as a liability rather than an asset. The more you have to maintain, the more work you have to do to maintain the code base and the harder it is to add new features or debug issues with existing features. So if you can deliver the same capability to your customers with less code, then that is preferable. Which is to say, the output of the software development process is much more loosely tied to predictable economic value than other capitalized assets.

> Software is also frequently delivered as a service, which highlights the inanity of treating software as a fixed, long-term asset. The team maintaining a SaaS will handle day-to-day site reliability engineering work, which is never a stable output but needs to be constantly tweaked to match actual usage patterns.

> Last, and this is implicit in much of the above, but unlike other capitalized assets, software is never really complete. There are always more features, more optimizations, more bug fixes. Software development is never steady state. Either the software isn't being developed actively and quickly loses nearly all value due to code rot, or it is being actively maintained and improved and is producing value. Buildings don't stop functioning as buildings when you stop paying the construction workers. Thus, software development does not produce a long-term fixed asset but rather is a continuous service delivery process, where the revenue produced in any given year was produced by the same year expenses to maintain the software. Thus, software expenses and revenues are mostly naturally aligned in a single tax year, and therefore software is not suitable for amortization.

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