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Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

reuters.com

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Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#571

Post by BoingBoomTschak »

KikoHeit wrote: post #517
hedora wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you proposing the deal could be made more fair? Keep in mind: Israel killed 100x more civilians than Palestine during this conflict, and more damage was done to Gaza than any European city during wwii. 90% of the population is displaced. 10% are casualties. Israel intentionally blew up all the civil infrastructure (hospitals, doctors, engineers) first. There are > 17,000 children that have no adults to care f…

[flagged]

You mean like some Israelis admitted doing during the 1948 independence war?

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#572

Post by miracle2k »

Niten wrote: post #438
zazazache wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is different from Hamas right to exist compared to the IDF or Likud? Hamas certainly has less blood on their hands!

Hamas is a terrorist, Islamist organization with the explicit goal of genocide against Israelis: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/ha... The blood of the Palestinian civilians that Hamas waged war from behind is absolutely on Hamas's hands.

> The blood of the Palestinian civilians that Hamas waged war from behind is absolutely on Hamas's hands.

Everyone is responsible for their own actions. Thousands of Palestinians children are dead, and for every single one, Israel could have chosen not to kill them, and the decision to do so is on them.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#573

Post by tptacek »

littlestymaar wrote: post #560
tptacek wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it wasn't. Hamas could have had this deal in May.

Tell that to the hundred of thousands of Israeli who March against Netanyahu every weekend to pressure him to accept a deal he's always refused.

He simply hasn't always refused this deal, or at least, if he was ultimately going to (until Trump took office), despite saying repeatedly on the record that he was still on board for this deal, we'll never know, because Hamas beat him to the refusal. If you like, put it this way: Hamas should have called his bluff back in May. They had nothing to gain by refusing.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#574

Post by JumpCrisscross »

littlestymaar wrote: post #555
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> We have absolutely zero credible evidence of tends of thousands of child deaths. Unfortunately we have. > Don’t start stupid wars This was indeed an insanely stupid move from Hamas. > Hezbollah (and Iran) has been rational Idk if I'd call that rational: they were afraid of going war against Israel and they mostly tried to appease it. Only do discover that appeasement doesn't really works well against expansionist s…

> they were afraid of going war against Israel and they mostly tried to appease it

Fear can be rational. Rational fear measures costs and benefits. It's balanced by grimmer trigger strategies [1], e.g. disproportionate retaliation.

> appeasement doesn't really works well against expansionist superpowers

Correct. Israel isn't a superpower.

(Even so, you only don't appease an adversary if you know you can win. If there is no possible world in which you win, the correct move is to drop the organised response to preserve resources and go guerilla. Part of the reason for maintaining peacetime readiness is so that you have the option of grim triggering.)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigger_strategy

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#575

Post by akvadrako »

sammy2255 wrote: post #559

How long before Hamas start shooting rockets indiscriminately into Israel again

Have they stopped? Hamas and the other militias in Gaza fire rockets into Israel almost every day since the war started.

It'll take at least a few days to see if that stops.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#576

Post by wqaatwt »

slt2021 wrote: post #516
rastignack wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> undermining democratic structures Democratic structures like fatah and hamas ?

the difference between terrorists and freedom fighters is temporal. Yesterday they were called terrorists by the mainstream, tomorrow when they win they will be hailed as heroes and freedom fighters. the zionists were also called terrorists by the UK in the beginning, especially when they bombed king david hotel

Except Zionists are capable of establishing and running a democratic state (however flawed according to some it might be).

It would be silly to pretend that’s even remotely close to being an option for Hamas. For starters modern Islamic fundamentalism is inherently incompatible with democracy (amongst other reasons).

Expecting that organizations like Hamas could somehow magically change for the better is pure madness regardless of everything else.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#577

Post by hmcq6 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #548
hmcq6 wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Conservative figures show that more than 6,000 women and 11,000 children were killed in Gaza by the Israeli military over the last 12 months. https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/more-women-and-child... Edit: also that's not war, thats war crimes

11,000 is not “tens of thousands.” It’s a horrible number. But horrible doesn’t mean numbers are meaningless. > that's not war, thats war crimes It’s both. And unfortunately, it’s the variety of war crime that’s essentially normalised to modern urban warfare. (Especially if one side hides its assets among civilians.) The only war crimes we seem to hold others to account on are WMD ones, and even then it seems there’s…

> 11,000 is not “tens of thousands.” It’s a horrible number. But horrible doesn’t mean numbers are meaningless.

1) you're splitting semantic hairs that no one but you actually cares about. No one who is still on the fence is going to see your comment and think "hmm I guess I still don't know". If you'll excuse the death of 11,000 children you'll excuse the death of any amount of children.

2) this conflict has been going on for over a year but that quote only reflects a years worth of data so the real number will be higher than the one I supplied.

3) I take it you don't know what conservative means in this context? Let me break it down for you another way then.

The lancet's conservative estimates up to 186,000 deaths will be attributable to the IOF's handling of Gaza. Given 43% of the population of Palestine was children before Oct 7th that means we can expect about 80,000 children will have died as a results of Israel's actions even if the ceasefire holds.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

So again, you're splitting semantic hairs to try and imply that the damage is being overstated when it is in fact as accurate as one can be.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#578

Post by mrkeen »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #206
dmix wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of any of Israel's wars in recent history none has decimated their regional enemies as much as this. Every way you cut it they are in a much more secure position militarily. Iran (aka Lebanon/Syria) losing so badly is more important than Hamas surviving because that was the cludgle that threatened them from punishing Gaza too harshly (for ex: America pushed Israel very hard not to provoke Lebanon after Oct 7 and we s…

Israel was in an extremely secure position on October 6th. They blew it by getting soft on border security, a mistake they won’t make again. There was absolutely zero reason a single hamas fighter should’ve been able to escape Gaza.

A good first step for border security would be to declare where those borders are.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#579

Post by botanical »

I hope the leaders of this genocide are brought to be accountable. Apartheid Israel have killed 10s of thousands, stole their land and dehumanised the Palestinian people; all supported by the so-called enlightened West (especially the US). This leaves a huge black spot on their morality.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#580

Post by lostlogin »

bawolff wrote: post #510
hedora wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you proposing the deal could be made more fair? Keep in mind: Israel killed 100x more civilians than Palestine during this conflict, and more damage was done to Gaza than any European city during wwii. 90% of the population is displaced. 10% are casualties. Israel intentionally blew up all the civil infrastructure (hospitals, doctors, engineers) first. There are > 17,000 children that have no adults to care f…

> How are you proposing the deal could be made more fair? Keeping hostages is a war crime. A fair thing would be for Hamas to follow its obligations under international law and unconditionally release them (before anyone says, well israel did X which also isn't allowed, 2 wrongs don't make a right). > more damage was done to Gaza than any European city during wwii How are you quantifying this? I'd be surprised if Gaz…

Dresden is a darkly funny choice for comparison. Area bombing definitely wasn't a war crime and Arthur Harris was not a war criminal.
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