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Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

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Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#571

Post by lynndotpy »

John23832 wrote: post #90

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

> EDIT: In the below thread are many people who personally identify as omnipresent IRC Gods, so my experience must have happened in an alternate universe. My bad.

For what it's worth, this aligns with what I've seen on IRC as well (in the 00s.) I really think a lot of people just don't see bigotry for what it is when it's not explicit. (E.g. "lol girl = guy irl, there are no girls on the internet" being a common sentiment that might just be easily forgotten.)

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#572

Post by crackercrews »

SpeedilyDamage wrote: post #524
slowmovintarget wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thomas Sowell pointed out two problems with the "idea" in Discrimination and Disparities . First, what evidence do we have that diversity does result in a company performing better, or gaining that amazing employee? He argues that this is an unfounded assumption. Setting that aside, his second point requires deeper consideration. Disparities are often caused by upstream circumstances, like fewer children having adult…

> First, what evidence do we have that diversity does result in a company performing better, or gaining that amazing employee? He argues that this is an unfounded assumption. It's not an assumption. > Along all dimensions measured, the more similar the investment partners, the lower their investments’ performance. For example, the success rate of acquisitions and IPOs was 11.5% lower, on average, for investments by p…

I haven't read all these studies but wonder if they claim causality or mere correlation. I see lots of correlation, which could be reverse correlation in disguise. Companies that are on a good trajectory decide to engage in more DEI than companies that are fighting to survive. Analysts conclude that DEI and success are correlated. They don't consider the possibility that the causal arrow runs the other way.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#573

Post by anonymouskimmer »

Manuel_D wrote: post #565
anonymouskimmer wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how do you replace this text without losing important, non-origin context? What you probably need is an entire re-write. But a re-write, or even a bad text replacement, can make it look like the applicant is better or worse at grammar or writing in general. This is not as easy a task as a simple text replacement.

The important content is their work history, projects, technical skills, etc. If the rewriting is awkward, it's affecting all candidates uniformly.

A genuine bad rewrite would tend to affect all candidates uniformly (except those who have pre-anonymized their applications, thus gaming the process), but a find-replace is more problematic.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#574

Post by strawpeople »

John23832 wrote: post #509
tacitusarc wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see a different risk with DEI, and I’d sure love your perspective if you’re willing to give it. I think there’s a certain class of people (mostly young and white though the fact they are white is explainable as a statistical artifact) who feel empowered by DEI to push for changes that are meaningless and burdensome, but give them a feeling of power and virtuousness. This includes changing away from “master” as a br…

> I see a different risk with DEI, and I’d sure love your perspective if you’re willing to give it. I think there’s a certain class of people (mostly young and white though the fact they are white is explainable as a statistical artifact) who feel empowered by DEI to push for changes that are meaningless and burdensome, but give them a feeling of power and virtuousness. Yes there are plenty of people who want to sit…

[dead]

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#575

Post by gfodor »

kmeisthax wrote: post #468
gfodor wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key thing is there needs to be a falsifiable condition whereby we agree these programs have achieved their primary goal, and that the risk of scope creep, corruption, or other externalities like the ones the OP mentions has exceeded the potential further benefits, so they should be wound down. I'm not going to state my opinion here, but if such a condition is not identified in any way, we should assume these grou…

The falsifiable condition is that the underlying social attitudes driving the racism/sexism/etc have dissolved. Problem is, this is a social process that takes centuries to complete. You are never going to hit a point in a single institution where you can say "We fixed our diversity problem, let's go home", because it can just come back as you hire more people and older hires leave. Furthermore, society is frustratin…

What you have pointed out is the exact opposite of a falsifiable condition. If we can’t disprove the possibility of a regression back to the past, then this is not meeting the test, and we should expect the results I mentioned.

You actually could and should abolish the police in certain kinds of terminal states where crime was eradicated - the eradication may be due to a genuine shift in the way people behave (due to some other underlying reason.) One falsifiable condition would be “surveys show a fundamental shift in sentiment by the public towards the motives that have historically led to crime.” If you’re going to condition the abolishment of the police on a scenario where we need to also prove that this won’t regress, then in a scenario where the underlying motive of crime is systematically gone, the police will exist and seek out ways to regenerate it to ensure they have a purpose, among other toxic phenomena.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#576

Post by John23832 »

seneca wrote: post #334
John23832 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is simple, hire better minority candidates. There are minority candidates who can thrive at all levels of tech. Nobody is telling your to hire subpar candidates. That's on your company's lazy implementation of their inclusion efforts, not on DEI.

This is the classic excuse. "Bad outcomes aren't the fault of X, you're just doing X wrong" even though X always leads to the same bad outcomes. When an initiative fails, the solution is rarely to do more of it.

If you don't think you can hire better minority candidates, then the implication is that there are no better minority candidates?

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#577

Post by doix »

aliqot wrote: post #112
John23832 wrote: post #90

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

Growing up on IRC, I have very much the same experience as you but quite opposite as I experienced hardly any racism, and nobody knew my identity either. Nobody wanted to involve their personal lives or details until recently when identity and identifying became the thing.

I was only active on IRC in later years (early 2000's onwards) and there was definitely a lot of casual homophobia. Using 'gay' as a synonym for bad was extremely common, I picked it up as well. Calling someone a fag was done all the time as well, not even always as an insult.

I don't think the majority of people using the words were actually homophobic (I wasn't), just copying other people to "fit in" without even thinking of the possibility it was harming someone. I think it was early 2004-05 that someone private messaged me explaining that it sucks when people use the word that way and I stopped.

I don't recall much racism against black people, but I can totally see the N word being used casually in the same way in some other servers/channels.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#578

Post by Manuel_D »

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #573
Manuel_D wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The important content is their work history, projects, technical skills, etc. If the rewriting is awkward, it's affecting all candidates uniformly.

A genuine bad rewrite would tend to affect all candidates uniformly (except those who have pre-anonymized their applications, thus gaming the process), but a find-replace is more problematic.

If that's an issue, the companies could just tell applicants to pre anonymize their resumes to eliminate any potential gaming.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#579

Post by GaryNumanVevo »

PathOfEclipse wrote: post #562

Diversity should be natural, not forced. DEI forces diversity, which causes more problems than it solves and harms more people than it helps. It's been this way forever, including back when it was called "affirmative action." I suggest reading this book to see just how disastrous it's been: https://www.amazon.com/Affirmative-Action-Around-World-Empir... How do we improve natural diversity? Through persuasion, not coe…

Personally, I wouldn't link anything Thomas Sowell has written. He has literally claimed that Black Americans were better off during slavery than they are today [1].

> America is one of the least racist places overall in recorded history [citation needed]

[1] - https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/thomas-sowell-on-the-legacy-o...

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#580

Post by excerionsforte »

balls187 wrote: post #549
excerionsforte wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dragon Ball Z was introduced into lower income neighborhoods via Cartoon Network among many other anime, so it was hard to miss. It was pretty hard to miss Pokemon, Dragon Ball Z and etc. in elementary school especially with the merch kids brought to school. Marketing, re-runs and perceived coolness/epicness, I'd say drove the continued popularity of it. Once you hit high school and college though, Dragon Ball Z/Poke…

Cloud isn't Japanese. He is a fictional character from a fictional planet. And Goku isn't Japanese either; he is Saiyan, an Alien race. > Race, in general, isn't a big deal when you are younger It isn't a big deal, if you're not impacted by it (colloquially known today as 'privilege'). However, what you might not believe is a big deal, is arguably a big deal to other people. A few examples: You may not be aware that…

Let's be honest here, a creator can make Apples be purple and slightly deformed and call it Banora Apples, but it's still an apple. Plenty of people who like DBZ or FF to debate with on how to classify said characters based on traits such as skeletal structure, influences from the creator, etc. These classifications, I don't think about much when playing games in general, not that much of a fanboy in trying to identify with any character. Gonna have to find someone else here to debate with on any particular character's race or racial influences.

You clearly misread. Elementary and even some high school school kids don't think about "race" until it is pointed out in some way whether by a national event or cited as bullying reason etc. How you could extrapolate that to "race doesn't matter", I have no clue other than a misread whether intentional or not.

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