Do we live in a society without a counterculture? • Hacker News Board

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#571

Post by ipaddr » Wed, Feb 01, 2023, 6:51 PM UTC

tomdell wrote: post #542

narrator wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way you know 4chan is the counterculture is every time someone releases a new generative art tool, 4chan figures out a way to do stuff with it that makes the creators have to restrict and/or shut it down. Like in the 1960s how the mainstream culture would whisper under their breath and point in shock and horror at hippies and try to get them banned from various public venues, and send mobs to beat them up, we hav…

"narrator" is a fitting username since you're narrating your own subjective reality. I don't think making disturbing sexual content with AI image generators is going to be viewed the same way as free love.

Well I've got news for you. The 60s were about making disturbing sexual content available. People were trying to freak out the mainstream. History repeats. Your situation isn't as unique as you belief.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#572

Post by eddsh1994 » Wed, Feb 01, 2023, 6:52 PM UTC

koprulusector wrote: post #560

narrator wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way you know 4chan is the counterculture is every time someone releases a new generative art tool, 4chan figures out a way to do stuff with it that makes the creators have to restrict and/or shut it down. Like in the 1960s how the mainstream culture would whisper under their breath and point in shock and horror at hippies and try to get them banned from various public venues, and send mobs to beat them up, we hav…

The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quickest way to shutting the movement down was to criminalize its constituents, like hippies, or civil rights activists, through tactics like draconian drug laws and a drug war. The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discov…

> The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quickest way to shutting the movement down was to criminalize its constituents, like hippies, or civil rights activists, through tactics like draconian drug laws and a drug war.

That's an interesting point I haven't heard of before, thanks :)

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#573

Post by ipaddr » Wed, Feb 01, 2023, 6:52 PM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #566

tomdell wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"narrator" is a fitting username since you're narrating your own subjective reality. I don't think making disturbing sexual content with AI image generators is going to be viewed the same way as free love.

Several hippies wrote in favor of having sex with children. Many of them took their own advice. Look at how whitewashed hippies are now.

You couldn't get away with a lot of the content from the 60s now.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#574

Post by wskinner » Wed, Feb 01, 2023, 6:52 PM UTC

koprulusector wrote: post #560

narrator wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way you know 4chan is the counterculture is every time someone releases a new generative art tool, 4chan figures out a way to do stuff with it that makes the creators have to restrict and/or shut it down. Like in the 1960s how the mainstream culture would whisper under their breath and point in shock and horror at hippies and try to get them banned from various public venues, and send mobs to beat them up, we hav…

The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quickest way to shutting the movement down was to criminalize its constituents, like hippies, or civil rights activists, through tactics like draconian drug laws and a drug war. The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discov…

> The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discovery, acceptance, mutual aid, egalitarianism, free thought.

Then it’s worth considering why the prevailing culture at the time didn’t see it that way.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#575

Post by concordDance » Wed, Feb 01, 2023, 6:52 PM UTC

tomdell wrote: post #542

narrator wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way you know 4chan is the counterculture is every time someone releases a new generative art tool, 4chan figures out a way to do stuff with it that makes the creators have to restrict and/or shut it down. Like in the 1960s how the mainstream culture would whisper under their breath and point in shock and horror at hippies and try to get them banned from various public venues, and send mobs to beat them up, we hav…

"narrator" is a fitting username since you're narrating your own subjective reality. I don't think making disturbing sexual content with AI image generators is going to be viewed the same way as free love.

I suspect the opposite, that making disturbing sexual content will indeed be seen as free love is now.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#576

Post by ipaddr » Wed, Feb 01, 2023, 6:55 PM UTC

Taywee wrote: post #526

jjk166 wrote: post #484

If you only consume mainstream media then you may personally live in a society which lacks a counterculture. You strike up a conversation with the girl picking mushrooms in the middle of nowhere or you go to an underground death metal concert or spend a bit of time on 4chan and you'll find countercultures alive and well that you're just not part of. If you think a sense of sameness pervades the creative world then yo…

4chan is obnoxiously and brainlessly countercultural to the point of contrarianism, though. It used to be a fun place where people didn't care so much about social conventions and focused mostly on having a good time and poking fun at each other, but it's degraded into just hating anything and everything that they can attribute to anybody they don't like. I've seen tons of cases where they were on-board for something…

It sounds like you grew up and are beyond the childness. Don't take that experience away from others.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#577

Post by leshow » Wed, Feb 01, 2023, 6:56 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #213

drewcon wrote: post #114

I’m going to get flamed for this but at this point the closest we’re getting to counter culture is the exact opposite… “Trads”. Young people with super traditional values doing exactly the opposite of most of what you just listed. No one would seriously suggest the trendiest most mainstream supported or glorified lifestyles (van life, queerness, gig work) are counter culture…that IS the culture; there’s very little c…

> queerness ... there’s very little cultural risk in living those glorified identities Several US states are trying to make it illegal to be trans or even dress in a gender nonconfirming way. Queerness still carries a certain amount of real, physical risk; Norway Pride 2022 was cancelled because somebody shot up a gay bar and murdered two people.

Don't forget the bomb threats at hospitals providing trans care, or the actual shootings that took place at drag & gay clubs, Florida's "dont say gay" bill, you could go on and on.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#578

Post by yucky » Wed, Feb 01, 2023, 6:56 PM UTC

noobermin wrote: post #339

drewcon wrote: post #114

I’m going to get flamed for this but at this point the closest we’re getting to counter culture is the exact opposite… “Trads”. Young people with super traditional values doing exactly the opposite of most of what you just listed. No one would seriously suggest the trendiest most mainstream supported or glorified lifestyles (van life, queerness, gig work) are counter culture…that IS the culture; there’s very little c…

I guess the question here is what does the words, "mainstream supported" mean? Most corporate brands and media try to appeal to certain minorities. Is this what you mean? The thing is despite the media focus, it still is the actual case that such minorities do not have actual power in society in terms of actual statistics, but the media is just a mirage, the reality is that certain disparities still exist, despite me…

How is actual media representation not an "actual statistic"?

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#579

Post by rootusrootus » Wed, Feb 01, 2023, 6:57 PM UTC

undersuit wrote: post #501

rootusrootus wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a little disingenuous. A lot of people are pushing for trans rights that goes well beyond being recognized as an equal member of society. There are 100% legitimate discussions to be had which get shouted down with accusations of bigotry.

What goes beyond being recognized as an equal member? What discussions are being shouted down?

An easy example is insisting that trans people be allowed to play in sports based only on their identified gender. We have separation between mens' and women's teams because in many cases men have a biological advantage that would mean women did not ever win.

Insisting that an MTF woman be permitted to compete on equal footing somehow feels like offering equality to the trans person, but it does so at the expense of everyone else she competes against.

A perfect example is the MMF fighter who as a man was decidedly mediocre, but absolutely dominated when fighting as a woman. That is grossly unfair to the women she was competing against.

Trans supporters are fond of loudly, but falsely proclaiming anybody that holds this position is some kind of bigot. Except that biology is real and it is distinct from gender identification. Conflating them isn't helpful.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#580

Post by concordDance » Wed, Feb 01, 2023, 6:57 PM UTC

runarberg wrote: post #512

PuppyTailWags wrote: post #485

I kind of think we have a fragmentary counterculture going against prevailing culture in certain aspects only. Just as hippie counterculture was obviously mostly in american college-educated middle class students and black panthers were obviously primarily black. We have traditional catholics in america who are going against the pope's relatively progressive positions on gay people. We have aggressive de-institutiona…

When I think of counter culture, I think more about the cultural artifacts then some shared political believes. Sure the scene might have some shared politics, but that is a by-product, and is not necessary. I mean, see the punks and their wide range of politics. As an example, other people have mentioned furries. They do have a pretty easily distinguishable aesthetics which you’ll spot immediately when you look at t…

> most people have the same political view about LGBTQI+ anyway

Even in the anglosphere this isn't true. Those with differing views mostly keep silent. But get them in private or anonymously (e.g. a fellow train passenger) and a wide variety of views emerge.