Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I’ve also noticed a weird tendency to downplay theft lately, either through projecting a theoretical moral justification on to the shoplifter or by insinuating that retail stores are evil corporations and therefore deserve no sympathy. Let me try to convince you without defending the morality of the shoplifter or declaring corporations evil. 1. On the totem pole of crimes, petty shoplifting (without violence) is pr…
It’s morally wrong to steal, and has been since the beginning of civilization. “Though shalt not steal” - Ten Commandments “If a man has stolen goods from a temple, or house, he shall be put to death; and he that has received the stolen property from him shall be put to death.” - Code of Hammurabi Private property is the foundation of civilization and pretending theft doesn’t matter undermines the basis of our world.…
Why it’s hard to buy deodorant in Manhattan
571–580 of 763 posts
Re: Why it’s hard to buy deodorant in Manhattan
#572Earlier quoted context omitted.
You don't have to intend to commit a crime to have mens rea. You merely have to intentionally do all the steps involved in the crime. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse, and neither is intentional ignorance of whether you are breaking it or not. Pawn shops got the receiving end of this deal a while ago. Now it's Amazon's turn.
Intent does matter, however - plausible deniability would not be a thing otherwise. Only in cases of strict liability are intentions not usually considered, which mostly include minor offenses (infractions) and a few major ones like statutory rape. Possession of items that are illegal to possess in any situation is another case where strict liability applies, but possession of legal goods that “a reasonable person” w…
And Amazon can't exactly plead "plausible deniability" in an absolute sense here, because they ought to be aware that they're acting as a fence, and they ought to be aware that their processes are insufficient for reducing the degree of theft that's going on. If they've deliberately chosen to be ignorant of those facts, it would actually raise their level of culpability.
Finally, your analogy of legal solutions to technical solutions fails. In a democracy, legal solutions exist to meet the burden of social expectations. They do not stand outside of society. Unlike democratic laws, technical solutions are usually imposed on a community by people with disproportionate power - laws are created on a one person - one vote basis, but technical solutions are usually created on a one dollar - one vote basis. Therefore, technical solutions are usually not responsive to the needs of a society, and are far more likely to represent someone's One Fantastic Idea to Solve All Problems, rather than a compromise of interests resulting in social norms that can be imposed on defectors.
This is exactly an occasion when existing laws should be used, rather than plea for the devaluation of trust and law by ignoring laws simply because they might be applied against a powerful person.
Re: Why it’s hard to buy deodorant in Manhattan
#573Earlier quoted context omitted.
Right, so this is a hugely political issue right now. Don't be surprised to get wildly differing answers. Republicans are pointing at public disorder and screaming about crime, and Democrats are accusing them of being fragile suburbanites who can't handle normal urban life. I'm a left-leaning independent, and I tend to agree with Democrats on a lot of their talking points, but I will say that everywhere I go I see mo…
I'd like the organized retail theft (gangs of people robbing a store) cracked down on, but in general I'd prefer a softer touch on general petty shop lifting. These are different things, with different motivations, and cracking down on someone stealing because they have nothing doesn't actually prevent that from happening more (you need to address the underlying issue). The organized crime, however, should be harshly…
The petty shoplifters steal mostly because they can. They're not stealing a bag of rice because they're starving, they're stealing a new pair of jeans because there's no need to pay.
There being unpleasant consequences for stealing actually would deter them.
Re: Why it’s hard to buy deodorant in Manhattan
#574Earlier quoted context omitted.
Or just a database of serial numbers .
A database of serial numbers alone wouldn't be sufficient. Counterfeiters frequently copy real serial numbers and print them on fake products. There are more effective means such as tamper resistant RFID tags, but those aren't cost effective for cheap items. And often no one bothers to check anyway.
I've seen implementing individual labeling of items in two cases first-handed. Both were required by new regulations and both almost kill small companies.
Cost of new equipment (readers, dedicated computer which can work 24/7 in real world in the hands of non-IT people), IT system (you have only one vendor, of course, as it is government-required system, and you can imagine quality of this solution, as it is written by government contractor), support for this IT system and integration with existing POS and ERP (by 3rd party company), all these costs are tremendous in practice. If you are not reseller or distributor but producer, you need additional hardware (typically very expensive one) to apply tags to items on your production line.
Unique tags prices are negligible here.
I've seen this for small custom brewery (with very rudimentary bottling line) and for small imported/distributor of fine and exotic alcohol. Both companies are alive, but they were forced to get loans when implemented new regulations about individual-per-bottle tags, and it was long and painful process in both cases.
Who will pay for this? You. And me. In both ways: some business goes out (think: your nearest papa-n-mama grocery store, which struggles to compete with big supermarket chain already), and other business will rise up retail prices to cover expenses to implement supply-chain control systems. As there will be expenses on all steps from producer to retail store, these expenses will accumulate.
And we already pay (with taxes) for police. Which work is to catch thieves.
UPDATE: And as sibling comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33740337) points out, it is not one-time expense for any business in supply chain, as they will need to scan all these tags, and have (much) more warehouse/retail space workers or pay more for more hours. Always, forever.
Re: Why it’s hard to buy deodorant in Manhattan
#575Re: Why it’s hard to buy deodorant in Manhattan
#576Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I’ve also noticed a weird tendency to downplay theft lately, either through projecting a theoretical moral justification on to the shoplifter or by insinuating that retail stores are evil corporations and therefore deserve no sympathy. Let me try to convince you without defending the morality of the shoplifter or declaring corporations evil. 1. On the totem pole of crimes, petty shoplifting (without violence) is pr…
> already build shrinkage into their budgets This is a shortsighted take. This is as stupid as the corporations buying "cyber insurance" not realizing the cases are going up and that prevention and processes are needed. Then comes next year their premiums shoot up. Who would have thought it?! Yes they "build shrinkage" for a forecasted number. If that number goes up and you get people swiping large amounts of product…
Re: Why it’s hard to buy deodorant in Manhattan
#577Earlier quoted context omitted.
The cops are generally part of the crime problem in NYC. They also don't go after people for anything short of attempted murder (even when it's done in front of their faces), so lots of crime goes unreported.
Yes, that’s a big part of the problem. By far the most common lawbreakers I see in my day-to-day are cops committing traffic infractions. You can tell you’re by a police station solely by how impassable the sidewalk becomes for pedestrians. There was an incident recently in which someone removed an obstruction from a license plate. The police ignored the illegally obscured plate but arrested the person clearing it fo…
Re: Why it’s hard to buy deodorant in Manhattan
#578Earlier quoted context omitted.
Selling stolen goods hurts everyone, which is why it's a crime. It hurts the companies being stolen from, it hurts competing businesses who have a hard time competing legally, it hurts consumers, who get reduced choice due to reduced competition, and it hurts communities when their local chains shut down because organized crime has a place to fence their goods. It's mind boggling that folks are defending the ability…
I am not promoting "punishing harshly petty theft" I am suggesting that the direction current prosecutors are going is to not punish theft at all. I am also not denying that Amazon and eBay can operate as easy targets to fence stolen goods. What I am suggesting is that demanding Amazon "do something" about goods that fell off the back of a truck essentially means that any seller who doesn't get an Official Licensed D…
Your suggestion would generally be incorrect. Prosecutors in _some_ jurisdictions are choosing not to prosecute petty theft, but when organized crime cases are brought to them, they are prosecuting them.
Police, however, have done a poor job of investigating these crime rings, and in some cases have chosen not to make arrests to push a political agenda.
More enforcement against petty theft won't stop the organized crime problem.
You're going to an extreme on how to stop the illegal sales. Amazon could, for instance, stop allowing sales from any company that has fenced illegal goods through them. They could only allow well established businesses that have existed for x years to sell, or heavily inspect companies younger than x years. They could get lists of well-known resellers from manufacturers and heavily inspect businesses not on those lists.
Re: Why it’s hard to buy deodorant in Manhattan
#579Earlier quoted context omitted.
We already tried this. It was called The War on Drugs and it failed totally, completely and unambiguously. If there's one thing to understand about the last 60 years of United States drug criminalization and enforcement, it's that those policies have utterly failed to curb drug abuse and addiction. There are a mind-boggling number of studies which show that criminalizing drug use doesn't create fewer drug addicts.
What is a better solution?
Re: Why it’s hard to buy deodorant in Manhattan
#580A cheap deodorant (Dove/whatever) is like $2-3 in expensive parts of Europe. That's not worth stealing. What makes them $8 or $10 in manhattan? It's an expensive area and I guess there aren't many large stores to buy from but more smaller pharmacies, but that still doesn't explain why there is a 2-3x price difference for deodorants in particular.
In Sweden, deodorant sticks are smaller than what I’d get in Canada. There’s also an appalling lack of variety. In particular, you never see Old Spice. I think there is a lucrative business opportunity in bringing American deodorant maximalism to the nordics.
This must be due to the size of the north american armpit.
> There’s also an appalling lack of variety. In particular, you never see Old Spice.
There aren't any Tim Hortons either but I'm not sure if "Brand X is missing" and "There is no variety" is generally the same thing.