Windows needs a change in priorities • Hacker News Board

Re: Windows needs a change in priorities

#571

Post by tcmart14 » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 10:49 AM UTC

robertlagrant wrote: post #557

tcmart14 wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the vendors got metrics that showed that desktop linux user share was enough and viable enough, they would. The issue is, Linux users are a small share of the desktop market. But, if that number grew, it changes. Hardware vendors would port their drivers over once the potential revenue of customers on a different platform outweighs the cost in doing so. Otherwise, I don't think Brother or Nvidia really give a damn…

This is true, but still - people want to print documents. They don't want to run Linux (or Windows). If they can't print documents, that's a problem. The solution was Google Cloud Print, IMO. That was a great idea. Who cares what you run, as long as it can connect to the internet you can print. I don't know how in-depth it got with the various crazy menu systems

That brings up an excellent point. Services like these start to eventually render driver support useless. I haven't heard of Google cloud print, but I just looked it up. Even though it looks to be EOLed, there are alternatives still going, just not from google. My HP printer has an app. I can push documents to the app that goes up to HP then comes back down on to my printer, if I have my printer configured with that. I think my last printer, which was a bother had something similar where I could set it up on my home network in such a way that I can just email a document to a special bother email address which then prints it out on the brother printer.

Re: Windows needs a change in priorities

#572

Post by yathaid » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 10:52 AM UTC

rthomas6 wrote: post #101

Silhouette wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody at Microsoft who has decision-making authority actually cares. Acknowledging this is the first step. The second is figuring out what would make them care or how to remove them so someone who does care can take over. That's a much harder thing to do. Realistically Microsoft is in a similar position to the likes of Google and Facebook. They have such an entrenched monopoly, bought through years of ignored warnin…

What is wrong with Linux nowadays? I've used it as my main driver for long enough that I can't see the big problems that are preventing everyone from switching. Like, it seems easier than even WSL to me. Beginner friendly distos seem to have solved the package management problem, and there are adequate desktop environments, office suites, browsers, gaming, and everything else. If a person has good hardware compatibil…

This article has a laundry list of things that annoyed the heck out of me. So I decided to try and dual boot to Ubuntu on my Surface Pro 7.

This may come across as a rant, but I do not mean it that way. I know the tears and sweat people have pored it into this. Anyway, here is the list of things that I found are broken:

- HDPI monitor support is BAD. Unity cannot do fractional scaling, resulting in perfect fonts on the menu, but such poor fonts in firefox that my eyes started to hurt.

- The SurfaceLinux sub-reddit seemed to suggest KDE/Plasma is better at this, which it is. I am trying this as my daily driver. The LTS version is still on X11, which means a common app like Obisdian.md actually caused the system to go to swap; I am still trying to figure out if this is the culprit.

- Trying Plasma on Wayland caused the system to hang. Fair enough, this is still under development.

- KDE minimal install, in its infinite wisdom, does not include the network manager applet. It is 2022, do you think users will not want to connect to wifi?

- Each time I switch from clamshell mode to multi-monitor, I need to reset the layout of the widgets on my desktop.

- Another easter egg in fractional scaling; the size of the cursor changes when you hover over certain windows or the task manager panel. I am not as familiar with the Linux ecosystem as I used to be, so I am not sure why this happens.

- Abandoning all hope of legible, anti-aliased fonts, I have tried to increase the font size across the system and in certain apps like Firefox and VS Code. You should see some of the hilariously bad KDE setting screens that cannot work with a font size of 16px (the default is 12px).

- SDDM seems to think I want an onscreen virtual keyboard even though I have a keyboard attached. It literally does not show me the login screen. I have to blindly tap in my password making sure focus is not lost on that box lest I never be able to login.

- Every time firefox starts the application renders like there is a rift in reality in the left bottom corner of screen. A forced maximize fixes this, but still.

I love my Wobbly Windows. I so want it to succeed. But architecturally, something just feels broken. The split between a display manager, a window manager and a compositor just means that instead of having to worry about one thing to make sure I have a working display, I need to worry about three things.

Re: Windows needs a change in priorities

#573

Post by Agamus » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 10:52 AM UTC

ziml77 wrote: post #169

skoskie wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it’s linux, so one obscure setting in a config file or slightly different hardware can make all the difference. I say this as a linux user since WinXP. The whole OS market is pretty rough right now.

> The whole OS market is pretty rough right now. This is my feeling over the past few years. No OS is in a great spot. But I have hopes for Linux being better supported with Valve using it on the Steam Deck. (Not the highest hopes, but more hope than I used to have)

I dropped Windows for Linux with XP. I use Linux for all my computing needs, except a few video games that don't like Wine. For those, I do have a separate Windows machine that gets turned on to play those games (like a console), and turned off when I stop. Both machines are built desktops.

I never use the Windows box for anything else. No files, no coding, no internet browsing, no music, etc. No cameras, microphones, bluetooth adapters, etc. are installed. I turn that thing on every few weeks or so.

This has worked well, and is a compromise with which I can live. Try it, it's blissful!

Re: Windows needs a change in priorities

#574

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 10:54 AM UTC

seanp2k2 wrote: post #264

skoskie wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it’s linux, so one obscure setting in a config file or slightly different hardware can make all the difference. I say this as a linux user since WinXP. The whole OS market is pretty rough right now.

I use macOS + Windows + Pop!_OS (Ubuntu-based) on a daily basis and they're all better or worse depending on the task at hand. They're all useable but imperfect. For me, Windows is for gaming and some music production stuff, macOS is my work laptop and dev environment, and Ubuntu is for most other things like personal use, but also my desktop dev environment. Testing Windows stuff on an M1 Mac with Parallels doesn't…

[deleted]

Re: Windows needs a change in priorities

#575

Post by deadbeeves » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 10:55 AM UTC

emptysongglass wrote: post #549

deadbeeves wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think it does but please highlight which problems it doesnt avoid. I've never used it, I was guessing based on my understanding of what LTSC is. >Do they respect me as a user? What are their capital incentives? If not aligned with mine why do I love them? The thing you love is the shoes, not the shoes' manufacturer. >Can I change my purchasing habits so their capital incentives align? Can you, as in, is it possibl…

> Are you implying that the natural tendency of a product is to get worse until it's no better than its competitors? Yes! And I'll get a little philosophical here but if we really take an eagle's eye view on the source of this problem it's that capitalism insists on growth to keep the machine of prosperity running. On a microcosmic scale you can see this at work inside companies, which must pursue new growth streams…

Fair enough. I don't think capitalism is the source of the problem, though, but public trading of company shares. And more specifically, the concept of fiduciary responsibility. I honestly think that's poison in how it misaligns incentives and that it's socially a net negative, if we assume that the societal purpose of a company is primarily to provide services to its customers.

Re: Windows needs a change in priorities

#576

Post by zer0tonin » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 10:57 AM UTC

the_snooze wrote: post #258

GekkePrutser wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teams works on Linux now. It's a pig of an app especially on Mac (haven't tried Linux enough to verify) but it runs. On my Mac it takes a minute to start (fast M1 system), randomly crashes or hangs and often uses more than half my memory. But it is supported :)

It "works," but not well enough for my purposes. I need to be able to share PowerPoint on Teams with my full slides visible to participants, and speaker notes visible only to me. There's no native PowerPoint for Linux, so that's a no-go.

It does actually work very in-browser office 365 powerpoint on linux.

Re: Windows needs a change in priorities

#577

Post by Nextgrid » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 11:00 AM UTC

krageon wrote: post #485

Silhouette wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the few really good things about some modern privacy laws is that this kind of defence carries almost zero weight. You don't get to do scummy things and then claim that the user "consented" because of some small print on page 50 of some document no-one ever reads before clicking the button they have to click in order to use the software they just paid for.

> You don't get to do [...] The response to every legal argument is "yes, you do" as long as you have enough money. Lo and behold, Microsoft is swimming in it.

Not only do they have enough money to begin with, but they're earning way more from this than any fine they can realistically expect (if a fine ever comes, that is).

Re: Windows needs a change in priorities

#578

Post by DrBazza » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 11:03 AM UTC

cyxxon wrote: post #538

DrBazza wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody at Microsoft who has decision-making authority actually cares. I don't know if it started with Ballmer, but they do care, but it is just about sales, and making money. It's not as if selling and making money is antithetical to making good software either. It's always the same in the IT industry. The "non technical" managers are invariably higher in the org chart than developers and they have no concept of wh…

Or they do have an idea what the users want, but it is still bad... at my job, the non-technical managers bought the SAP marketing koolaid, promised our internal users the cool new stuff they were going to get with the new software, and we in the IT just want to scream and say, no, you can't get that, that's not supported, or will take a year to build because we would have to revamp almost everything ourselves... and…

Acceptance tests:

"As a user I want to XYZ"

vs.

"As a product manager listening to what I think a user said, they want to ABC"

That's what happens when developers in large companies are not allowed or do not want to talk to users.

Re: Windows needs a change in priorities

#579

Post by ljm » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 11:06 AM UTC

Gigachad wrote: post #415

kyriakos wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see your point but maybe the reactions are because most of these efforts feel half baked? For example they are forcing teams on users, which I use as a daily driver at my work and I feel that it's the worst piece of software I have to use. On top of that the way things are integrated always looks and feels forced. Like going into lengths to hide control panel in windows 10 even if it's still there and while the set…

I agree it’s an implementation issue. Windows always feels like annoying nagware while macOS and iOS largely get out of your way. Teams would pop up with a window on every boot to annoy you while FaceTime just sits in the background. But the power users on this site would rather we have some kind of advanced configuration page where every single feature of windows should be opt in. While simultaneously praising the A…

Edge is arguably the worst one here. Change your default from Safari on MacOS and it'll never bother you again, and anything that would have previously opened in Safari will open in the new browser.

There's practically no easy way to get rid of Edge or silence it; not only is it forced down your throat, there's active investment in trying to prevent you from switching to something else.

It doesn't excuse the constant nagging from OneDrive and Teams but, at least for now, they're not detecting that you're on Slack/Discord/Dropbox and trying to force you to switch.

Re: Windows needs a change in priorities

#580

Post by boondaburrah » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 11:11 AM UTC

khaledh wrote: post #98

interstice wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a theory that the people who used the bar on the side and the people who turned the user metrics off are the same people (myself included). But I’m not sure how I feel about the results. In any case I hope shells like litestep make a comeback as a result of ever more hostile ui decisions, either that or everyone jumps ship entirely to put energy into making something else great.

The problem is that Windows with all its warts now is still far ahead of the competition in that department (desktop GUI). Whether that's due to monopoly or being actually better, it doesn't matter. The fact is competition is almost non-existent.

I say KDE is the best desktop if they could just get their shit together and debug it on all hardware configurations. It's absolutely miles ahead of Windows in features, however, as a power user I can fix it if it gets wonky, but a regular user shouldn't be expected to.