Live data from Hacker News

Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

theverge.com

571–580 of 627 posts

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#571
post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is still value in the comparison, but you are absolutely correct. Any comparison must include this huge caveat - the Mac had a third party software ecosystem for over 20 years, well before OS X or a Mac App Store came along. There simply was far, far less historical incentive to adopt the macOS App Store than there was on iOS, which of course mandated the App Store from the beginning. As a thought exper…

On the other side, as a customer I'm not exactly happy with the prior ecosystem either: - every app has their own licensing system - I have to keep track of emails, license key files, logins and other bullshit manually instead of having it synchronized automatically at application install. Not to mention I have a boatload of shop accounts that have collected my payment and other personal data (e.g. postal address) an…

The things you want aren't incompatible with competition.

Suppose you could buy iOS apps from Google Play and vice versa, and also buy both kinds of apps from Amazon, Microsoft and Epic. They still take care of all the payments and licensing bullshit, but now the developer gets to choose how to distribute their app, so the competition drives down fees.

And then once all the stores are charging low fees because otherwise nobody would use them, developers tend to put their apps in all the main stores and the user can choose the stores(s) they prefer to buy through.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#572
post #209

Good. I've been saying this awhile, most notably when Apple (of course followed by Google) introduced a discount on commission for smaller developers. This is completely backwards. I know why they did it. They wanted some positive PR that didn't cost them anything. Thing is, it's the larger publishers who are going to lobby regulators and challenge things in court. It's those same publishers who already have their ow…

That's exactly it, so many users are afraid that this will mean every random app you download will have a credit card entry field. Nope. Those random apps will still benefit from the simplicity of the system IAP, one tap, auth, done. The ones asking for a credit card will drop in ratings and search results. The big players are the ones that will switch, amazon, Netflix, Spotify, Hulu, etc. And beyond that, competitor…

> If Apple thinks hosting costs are of any consequence, then charge people for hosting If they don't actively use IAP. For 99% of apps hosting is pennies on the dollar, but for games like Fortnite it may actually cost a decent amount, especially for the binary size.

I don't know how this is on iPhones, but on android (large) games are usually still a small download with just the binary and no assets from the app store, and the game assets are then downloaded from the game company server by the game binary itself.

That also allows them to push some updates (think e.g. balance patches) that don't require a new binary to be pushed without having to wait for appstore approval again.

So there's a decent chance they may already do that because it also gives them other benefits.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#573

The Mac App Store gives a hint at what would happen if there was any choice. The amount of software actually available for the Mac is far, far greater than what’s listed in the store. Furthermore, while some quality and notable apps are still in the Mac App Store, many well-known apps are not there. The number of lousy apps is also extremely high every time I go to search or just look at the front page, to the point…

> The Mac App Store gives a hint at what would happen if there was any choice. There's a choice of app store in Android and almost nobody uses Amazon App Store, F-Droid, Samsung App Store and so on. It's great that they can exist, but I don't think the Mac App Store (which has been neglected since day 1) offers any guidance. People mostly use what they know or are giving by default. In desktop, be it Windows, Linux o…

The problem with alternate app stores on Android is that before Android 12 (which is still only in beta), other stores couldn't update the apps they install, which is kind of fatal.

You also can't install the various alternate stores themselves through Google Play and Google purposely makes installing APKs a pain for regular people.

And then it's "see, nobody wants them" after they purposely put a wall in front of them which most people can't get past.

So developers still need to be in Google Play to get all the users who can't figure it out, but if everything is in Google Play then even the customers who could figure it out have no incentive to go through the trouble.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#574
post #436

I have a question about monopolies and market abuses. Apple released their phone in 2007, the App Store in 2008, and in-app payments in 2009. During that time their marketshare was fairly small, and it didn't start to really grow until they expanded availability to the Verizon network in 2011. Right at launch of the App Store, Apple announced its sales commission would be 30%. Then they extended that same fee to in-a…

30% was highway robbery from the start. Pure and simple. It was merely a less awful deal than most other indie commission models, with sites like Kongregate and their ilk demanding >80%. Against that kind of flaying and skinning, 30% was an improvement! I've said it before. A very good agent, who actually works for their client and arranges them with repeat lucrative contracts, gets 15%. App stores, as gatekeepers to…

>30% was highway robbery from the start. Pure and simple.

From the Start? Credit where credit's are due, 30% for software was good enough for a lot of independent developers. Even to this day. Handle Processing charges, distribution, Tax etc. For a lot of categories 30% isn't that bad. Especially for Software.

The problem start when they are enforcing 30% on Services and not on Software. Signing up a Teaching Class with Real instructor on iOS? 30% to Apple. Signing up Services like Web Hosting, Video Streaming, or whatever it is, 30% to Apple. Apple had to made exempt to each and every category after people complain. At this point when the whole world is moving to digitisation, 30% no longer becomes a cost of Software but a Tax on all things.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#575
post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The arbitrary integer n = 100 is out of place, comparing your example with GP's comment. The commenter is totally right - the Mac App Store is just a gimmick in the same way that the iOS App Store is a total gimmick to accumulate fees from app developers. The fact that the review system is so broken is a pure indictment of the model itself.

Using reviews seems like the fairest idea 10 years ago. Society has changed. Couldn't they take reviews/rating on every app from the public, critics and other stats like downloads to create a scoring system like rotten tomatoes?

I meant app reviews from apple itself before getting any new update approved for listing on the app store, not user reviews of the app utility

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#576
post #561
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Steam is doing this 30%-20%, and it seems to be working fine of them.. so far. I generally think volume discounts come a bit too close to price fixing, if proven in court. Granted, it's tough to prove, as we've seen in Intel vs. AMD which settled out of court AFAICR.

The unusual thing about Steam is that their high fees discourage developers from using it. If they charged 3% then everyone would use it, there would be a million games there and being in the store wouldn't cause you to stand out at all. If they charge 30%, most small developers don't use it and then if you choose to pay, you get to be featured on a list without that many of your competitors. You're paying for exclus…

I do think Steam can charge more because it offers more good services for users than any other app/game store: search/discovery features that have gotten better over time, per game communities/mods, tons of social features including a marketplace, multiple platform support, and their customer service. Sure their fee might discourage some developers, but if there is a case to be made for 30%, this is it. It all works because there is competition between Steam/GOG/Itch/Epic/etc.. on multiple open platforms in a pretty well differentiated way.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#577

I have a question about monopolies and market abuses. Apple released their phone in 2007, the App Store in 2008, and in-app payments in 2009. During that time their marketshare was fairly small, and it didn't start to really grow until they expanded availability to the Verizon network in 2011. Right at launch of the App Store, Apple announced its sales commission would be 30%. Then they extended that same fee to in-a…

1. Not only were iPhone a niche in the market in pre 2010, Smartphone itself were a niche. Apple sold more iPhone in its iPhone 11 launch quarter than all of iPhone from 2007 to 2010 combined.

2. iPhone was really, a phone, an internet communicator, and a wide screen iPod. That was arguably true all the way until 2014 when the larger screen iPhone 6 Plus was introduced.

3. But today's Smartphone are more like Pocket Computer. Games, Video Consumption, Facebook. At a point when some people were laughing about phablet. Now vast majority of phones on the planet are phablet. They replaces consumer computing. They are no longer a phone in the sense of phone in 2007.

4. You now have a phone that replaces everything, Smartphone becomes a pocket computer that is the centre of our modern society. Access to everything digital.

5. The problem starts when Apple decided to focus on Services Revenue. Remember before the success of iPhone Plus, people were writing off Apple as their sales number did not grow as much as the Smartphone market. And Wall Street was putting pressure on Apple. Service Revenue was Tim Cook's answer ( or middle finger ) to shut these people up.

6. So Apple start breaking out services revenue, stopped reporting iPhone Unit sales, rework iOS, macOS, Map, iCloud and other cost from their product segment to paying $10 per unit to Services Revenue. And announce their target of Services Revenue by 2020.

7. Apple started enforcing rules on 30% as access fees. If it was coming from iPhone, Apple want 30% of it. It wasn't much of a problem with an App. It is much more problematic with services that use App as access. Wordpress blog, Domain Name, Teaching Class, Video Streaming Site, Creator Selling Digital Asset. Until someone complain, Apple started adding exemption to their rules of collecting 30%.

8. Services Sector works different to products. Software like Pixelmator or Photoshop are Software products. Netflix, or some Cartoon Network are Services. Apple used to turn a blind eye on many of these services. Once they start enforcing it because they had to chase their services revenue target. You start seeing lots of complaining.

9. Why should Apple dictate everything that goes through iPhone? If the world is going digitisation, does that mean everything that goes through iPhone will be charged 30% more? How is that not a tax? When it is Applied the same ( or nearly the same ) everywhere. How is this even sustainable?

10. Customer signing up a Email, when majority of cost are in Server. Or Signing a Real Person tutoring, where the cost is the Teacher in front of Screen. Why does Apple demand 30% of it? And how did this 30% number came from for their industry?

11. Lots of argument about Apple wrongly focus on consumer and completely ignore business. SMB are still large part of our society. And they are complaining just as much as big companies like Netflix or Spotify.

12. It is made worst when COVID hit, it speed up the whole digitisation of our society by at least 5 years if not 10 years. Explosive growth in e-commerce and other Digital goods or services. Why is it so hard to deal with Apple?

13. And they are not a niche anymore, they have anywhere from 20% to over 60% in key markets. Despite Tim Cook flat out lie about this. ( His likely defence is the term Market Share could be defined as Unit Sales and not unit usage ). And despite court doesn't like to define market themselves, if iPhone's owner are higher spending group and vast majority of your customer are iPhone customer, is that 30% an abuse of their market power?

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, I don’t think the marginal analysis tells the whole story here. If you imagine a business that made revenue through sales through an App Store without a 30% tax, with a 20% profit margin, that’s a healthy business. With the 30% cut, they lose 10% and go under. These missing smaller players are the deadweight loss from the cut. You either need the scale to cover your fixed costs from a reduced revenue stream, or…

You're looking at it wrong. The 30% store fee was a known cost of doing business before anyone spent money building the product. That cost would have been built into a determination of whether they'll need to set a retail price of $9 or $7.

But the point is that you might have a viable business at a price point of $7 that you won’t have at $10 (with the extra $3 all going to Apple).

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#579
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about getting rid of App Stores altogether unless they follow an f-droid like model? (Selection of alternative repos, Published source, declaring potentially unwanted behavior etc.)

You want to explain to your grandma how to get the right repo so she can get WhatsApp?

Please standby for inbound licensing agreement from Grandmas Are Not Free, the association to protect use of the Grandma trademark in software workflow narratives.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#580
post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all, there was nothing inevitable about Apple's success, many analysts, pundits and their competitors have been adamant Apple would fail for the first decade or so of the iPhone. After that these claims started looking a bit thin. You're presuming that market abuse has occurred and that market abuse is the only way to get popular, but I don't see that's a given. Maybe people simply genuinely like iPhones just…

They've expressed anti-competitive behavior from the beginning, but it's advanced over time. It's the confluence of factors that makes it particularly bad in Apple's case. You can't chance the software (OS) on the device. You can't run iOS on a different set of hardware. You can't run any store but the App Store on iOS. You can't deliver software to customers without using the App Store (or jumping through hoops for…

It doesn’t make sense.

Companies that build their own hardware are not and should not be required to somehow care about a It’s been done for decades with consoles, cars, TVs, etc space and now suddenly they’re all anti-competitive from the get go?

Post reply on HN