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Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

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Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#571

Post by sneak »

JackFr wrote: post #362
fooey wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's long established precedent that schools and colleges are allowed to require proof of vaccination. The idea isn't remotely new, and is nothing so odious as critics claim

I am not a lawyer, nor a public health legal expert but I think there is a significant legal difference between COVID and ordinary vaccine requirements because the COVID vaccines are only authorized for emergency use. I think schools and colleges requiring vaccination are also offering accommodations (distance learning, etc.) to avoid legal fights, while if the vaccines were fully authorized they would not.

> because the COVID vaccines are only authorized for emergency use.

This is only a technical, legal distinction. They have been administered rapidly to a significant fraction of the population; their specific legal status is mostly irrelevant at this point.

They are GA in practice, the release has been cut and people are running it. Paper pushers slapping an ass-covering "beta" on the splash screen are behind the times.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#572

Post by [deleted] »

[deleted] wrote: post #570
DoreenMichele wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, governments have done the world a disservice by speaking before they really had all the information at the start of the pandemic. They were doing the best they could to manage a crisis that it was their job to manage in an unprecedented situation. If people expected them to have perfect answers and solutions, they had unrealistic expectations.

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#573

Post by boruto »

tim333 wrote: post #507
tekknik wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we don’t force people to get all vaccines to travel. Requiring a vaccine passport for the covid vaccine forces people to get it, which is the real reason people are advocating for it.

I'm pro the passport thing, at least for travel, so life can go back to normal and I can say fly from UK to Italy and back without 5 pcr tests and 10 days isolating in spite of being basically immune. At least the EU are bringing them in in a couple of weeks and I imagine other countries will follow. The EU one I think allows for immunity from catching covid so if you are anti vax and want to go that route you can.

I don't get it, You are immune but you can still spread the virus. What is the difference between allowing someone who is vaccinated and someone who has covid without symptoms.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#574

Post by grae_QED »

ghoward wrote: post #422

My reply to Linus: https://gavinhoward.com/2021/06/a-letter-to-linus-torvalds/ .

>it is a bad judgment call to parrot a line about experimental medical treatments

You do realize that medical science has been doing vaccines for a while now. Really, there's no reason to think that there are any long term side effects to the covid-19 vaccine. Medical scientists aren't reinventing the wheel with covid-19. They already have blue prints from other corona viruses to work off of. There's nothing experimental going on here.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#575

Post by losvedir »

kaba0 wrote: post #374
losvedir wrote: post #55

I'm vaccinated but I think it's hindsight bias to say the mRNA vaccines are obviously safe. We had to wait for clinical trials to show that. There has been a great deal of research and development on the delivery of the mRNA, what kind of molecule to wrap it in, for example. Additionally, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but with e.g. the Spanish Flu, the morbidity was not from the flu, per se, but the immune res…

> the Spanish Flu, the morbidity was not from the flu, per se, but the immune response to it Sorry for being pedantic, but it’s the same as “you don’t die from being shot, but from the resulting blood loss”. Also, we did absolutely have clinical trials — only some aspect of it was allowed to begin sooner than it otherwise would have due to the urgency. Also, the mRNA tech was in development for a decade now.

> Sorry for being pedantic, but it’s the same as “you don’t die from being shot, but from the resulting blood loss”.

I think I wasn't clear then.

With the Spanish Flu, the virus took hold in the host and multiplied. As part of the immune response, the body released cytokines, which normally help with the situation. But for reasons I don't understand, the Spanish Flu often prompted a "cytokine storm", which is an uncontrolled and excessive release of these molecules, even after the virus was cleared. Ultimately, it was these cytokines, not the virus, that overwhelmed the body and killed the patient. So what we saw with the Spanish Flu was that younger people with stronger immune systems, died more than older people with weaker ones.

But the relevance here is that the mRNA vaccines inject a ton of mRNA to induce the body to produce Spike protein, a piece of Covid, in order to teach the adaptive immune system to recognize it and produce antibodies. And so my question is, could it have been the case that these Spike proteins would induce a cytokine storm? (We see now that they don't, but I'm not sure that was clear a priori.)

In other words, I think it's important to draw the distinction between the "gun shot" and the "blood loss". With Spanish Flu, a lot of the mortality came from the blood loss. However, with Covid, it appears the "gun shot" does more damage (i.e. patients who die form Covid, continue to have high viral loads; it's not a case that the immune system is what kills them).

But none of this was clear in advance.

> Also, we did absolutely have clinical trials

Yes, I said that.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#576

Post by losvedir »

outworlder wrote: post #120
losvedir wrote: post #55

I'm vaccinated but I think it's hindsight bias to say the mRNA vaccines are obviously safe. We had to wait for clinical trials to show that. There has been a great deal of research and development on the delivery of the mRNA, what kind of molecule to wrap it in, for example. Additionally, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but with e.g. the Spanish Flu, the morbidity was not from the flu, per se, but the immune res…

> If that's the case, could the proteins coded by the mRNA potentially have kicked off such a response? Why would they? And more specifically, why would they cause lung issues? Because that's the main problem with COVID. The virus like to bind to cells that have a specific receptors, with the vast majority contained in lung tissue. You would expect to see major damage near the injection site if your cytokine storm th…

> Except it's a localized, self-limited amount, as mRNA cannot replicate.

Well, hence my question about cytokine storm, since by definition that's an out of control feedback loop prompted by other cytokines and not the underlying virus any more. My question was about whether it's possible that just the spike protein could conceivably have induced that effect.

Good point about the localization of it. Though, I do feel like I read somewhere you see the Spike proteins mostly around the shoulder and in the liver, so it does travel through the blood somewhat.

Also, I was under the misunderstanding that cytokines were part of the adaptive immune system, and hence produced – I think? – in the bone marrow. If that were true, it wouldn't matter so much where the antigens were, since the B/T-Cells (getting confused on which is which) are produced elsewhere and have to make their way there anyway. And if that's the case, they'd be visiting the lungs. And, being adaptive, I thought it was something about the shape of covid and hence the antibodies that kicked off the storm in the lungs, and not necessarily the quantity or prevalence of the antigen in the lungs.

But, turns out it's part of the innate immune system, and seems like cytokines are mostly produced near the infection itself.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#577

Post by User23 »

tim333 wrote: post #511
kaba0 wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s just misrepresenting. While there exists pathways for RNA->DNA, they are a niche occurrence happening on evolutionary timescales. It is not at all applicable to the 30 minutes of mRNA half-life of the vaccine. And even just playing with the idea of our genome having the spike protein’s gene, it would either just sit there doing nothing (remember it is injected into muscle tissue) or get expressed. The former c…

>the 30 minutes of mRNA half-life of the vaccine. I think you'll find it's much longer that that for the vaccine. Apparently it hangs around about a week. The mRNA is modified to last longer than natural mRNA.

There is still an awful lot we don't know about cellular biology, so I'm always a bit baffled when people that should know better say that this or that is (virtually) impossible. Fortunately, we're running the largest phase 4 clinical trial in human history, so in 25 years or so we'll have some absolutely great longitudinal data.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#578

Post by tehwebguy »

mywittyname wrote: post #428
GuB-42 wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a good understanding of the scientific method, skepticism and fact checking should be taught in school as early as possible. The only thing students get is material presented as the truth that they have to faithfully accept. They are almost never taught how to deal with unreliable material. It made sense in the pre-internet age where finding information was the hard part, but now, it is the opposite: too much…

> I think a good understanding of the scientific method, skepticism and fact checking should be taught in school as early as possible. It is taught in schools, and taught young. The people who understand the scientific method have been doing it every year since the sixth grade. They did science fair projects, etc. I just looked up modern educational standards, and kids are taught in grade six the scientific method an…

Yeah it was taught very strangely IMO in my schools. There was always such a goofy focus on the dumbest science fair projects that were probably just as likely to reach a completely wrong conclusion instead of relating the process to the real world and how we as a society continue to learn how the world works in any scenarios newer than Redi’s meat / maggots experiment from 1668!

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#579

Post by E8zrhvz8qWbPolu »

derekp7 wrote: post #355
E8zrhvz8qWbPolu wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in Canada. I don't like the policy of one dose for everyone first. I believe the right thing to do is to vaccinate the most vulnerable groups with two shots first. So, what I'm doing is waiting until second doses are being offered to my age group before signing up for my first dose. I'm not anti-vax by any means, but that doesn't mean I think the government is doing a superlative job either.

Something I haven't seen discussed is what would have happened if the initial shots went to the 20-35 year old crowd (the ones that are out and about, partying, and have a number of super spreaders in that cohort)? Would that have done more to stop the virus spread then to vaccinate the more vulnerable (but already self isolated) people first? This would never be an option politically, but I'd like to know if it woul…

It's an interesting idea, and it looks like you're not the only one to think about this:

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/coronavirus/study-one-age-...

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/371/6536/eabe8372

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#580

Post by gremlinsinc »

tekknik wrote: post #441
gremlinsinc wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had someone tell me "science" is made to "replace" religion as another control mechanism... it's the "new religion". I was at a loss of words...

Just like I’m at a loss for words as to why you think religion is a source of control. Unless you mean discipline. Why do people still have to attack religion?

Assume for a minute that you don't believe in God.

Then explain how religion is not used to control (read: enforce moral standards).

God himself throws a temper and kills entire cities when they don't obey him, like any good dad would do, am I right? Murder their kids if they misbehave... (Sodom/Gomorrah).

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