Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing • Hacker News Board

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#571

Post by flippinburgers » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:39 AM UTC

throwaway3699 wrote: post #357

hypertexthero wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “The proximity of his workplace and his home is convenient, but there is a serious political motivation underlying it, too. When Steidl was a teen-ager, he spent several weeks volunteering at Auschwitz, clearing paths for visitors and sleeping in a former barracks. His father had served in the German Army, and Steidl participated in a program that had been established, he said, to show young Germans “what the paren…

We're not actually trying to equate working on email products at Basecamp to working at Auschwitz are we? It's an interesting anecdote but it hardly serves a useful function here.

It is also a complete inverse of the situation: it isn't the work being called into question, but whether or not everyone uniformly agrees in terms of their personal opinions and personal lifestyles.

I find the analogy above to be rather gross.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#572

Post by friedman23 » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:40 AM UTC

hn_user82179 wrote: post #509

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work. We've had this discussion already, but claiming sexist views is going to be a problem for you whether you do it at work or elsewhere because of how laws around hostile work environments and notice work. Particularly, if you go on to actually create a hostile work environment (as one might reasonably suppose you will, having publicly espoused the relevant…

> You'd need to convince workers to not believe that someone who says sexist stuff in a book is going to cause a problem for them. This resonated with me. Anecdotally, I sometimes wonder if small, unpleasant interactions (e.g. getting talked over multiple times in a meeting) have anything to do with my gender (I'm the only woman on my team) or are accidental/benign. I usually assume they're benign because I like my c…

Nah, I think you are racist for criticizing a hispanic person. I'd refuse to work with you.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#573

Post by linspace » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:42 AM UTC

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #411

ThinkBeat wrote: post #371

One part of the article: This is about a guy who wrote a book on his own time, published it outside of work. Someone did not like some parts of the book and the guy had to quit his job? There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work. I write fictional stories in my spare time (never at work), I enjoy doing it. Some people enjoy reading them (I can't figure out why) It is a sad day for a Democracy when I…

> There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work. We've had this discussion already, but claiming sexist views is going to be a problem for you whether you do it at work or elsewhere because of how laws around hostile work environments and notice work. Particularly, if you go on to actually create a hostile work environment (as one might reasonably suppose you will, having publicly espoused the relevant…

I think that in an advanced society people should be able to work with people that maybe think you are going to hell after you die for not worshipping the correct God. We don't discriminate based on religion, at least we shouldn't by law. People by the way usually leave religion outside work. I think there is consensus this is a good thing but it seems some people don't want to extend this principle that works so well to other aspects of life. Cargo cult is not just for programming.

I have worked with people coming from all the political spectrum and I prefer to evaluate their professional competence based on their acts, not their words. I have by the way seen misogynistic people change their opinion about women and homophobes change their opinion about homosexuals after some time being in the same company. Alienating people will just keep them in their bubble.

And I'm completely sure of something: the company may have fired the guy that wrote the book but what they really wanted was to fire the people campaigning for it.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#574

Post by Rebelgecko » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:43 AM UTC

SeanBoocock wrote: post #43

stephc_int13 wrote: post #33

The reason why politics is traditionally frowned upon in the workplace is to avoid toxic peer pressure and the resulting uniformity. It is illegal to discriminate against employees for their political opinions, religion, sexual orientation, race, ethnic background, etc. Allowing or even encouraging open political debates in the workplace jeopardizes it.

Political opinions are not protected in the same way, nor should they be, as the protected classes you cite (gender identity, sexual orientation, ethnicity, etc).

Political activities and affiliations are a protected for workers in California, where most of the companies in the article are based. However in extreme cases (like if you express your beliefs in a way that creates a hostile working environment) someone can still be fired

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#575

Post by [deleted] » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:44 AM UTC

jdgoesmarching wrote: post #83

yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #3

> last week Alphabet, Google’s parent, had to deal with another internal petition circulating among employees, this one calling on the firm’s leadership to make a statement “recognising the violence in Palestine and Israel”. It's a special kind of hubris to believe that despite over a thousand years of conflict in the region, the right people to comprehensively understand and solve the problem are some people who mak…

Nobody is fighting over theological differences, they are fighting over land. Specifically, land that was conquered by the British who promised it to both parties, failed to manage a compromise, tossed the problem to the UN who drew up horrible borders, then allowed Israel to settle beyond those borders without consequence. The entire history of this issue is roughly 100 years old and almost entirely due to imperiali…

[deleted]

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#576

Post by throway98752343 » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:46 AM UTC

jimmyswimmy wrote: post #174

duped wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The office exists within society. Some things exist everywhere you go in society. You don't give up ethics and morals because you cross the threshold of your place of business. Ignoring social problems in the workplace because it is a workplace is how we avoid solving those problems as a society. The office is exactly where we should be advocating for things, because it is where we spend the most time and can affect…

Oof. There isn't room to just go to work... to work? I want to go to the office and interact with people who are the best at what they do, I want my company to hire those people, and I expect them to hold me to equal standards. When the office was explicitly segregated, men vs women, black vs white, whatever,sure,they're could have been room for politics to change that in the workplace. It doesn't seem the same now.…

> How much would you enjoy discussing your potentially opposing political views with your boss? I trust him to be a good person, but once you pay that seed of doubt in someone's mind, things are never the same.

Why do you assume my boss is a man? That comment planted the seed of doubt in my mind. I'm sure a quick visit to HR can sort this out.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#577

Post by mypalmike » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:46 AM UTC

tshaddox wrote: post #8

eric4smith wrote: post #7

People are human. But work is work. The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work. Just stop to think about it logically for a minute... is the workplace the best place to circulate a petition condemning something that has nothing to do with work? The workplace necessarily is going to bring together…

> The point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work. What? I can’t be the only one who works directly in order to fulfill my needs (like literally my most basic needs, think food and shelter).

Are these not just two different perspectives on the same thing? The "aims of the entrepreneur" is overly specific to certain work arrangements, but overall the point stands. You have motivations to work which align with fulfilling your needs, and the organization you work for has motivations which align with what the owners/leaders want. The latter is served in part by your labor.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#578

Post by Teknoman117 » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:47 AM UTC

I absolutely do not talk about politics at work. I really don't want my career derailed because someone doesn't think I'm progressive enough.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#579

Post by sdenton4 » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:48 AM UTC

Areading314 wrote: post #512

langitbiru wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in the future, people will start to embrace pseudonymous accounts. People will not share any opinions with their real identities. But they'll do it with their pseudonymous accounts. This can go further than sharing opinions. People's livelihood will be based on their pseudonymous accounts. It happens already in cryptocurrencies projects. Some accounts who work in these projects are pseudonymous accounts. They…

This is also what people do in autocratic regimes. Effectively we have created a "democratic autocracy" by means of allowing mobs of people to steamroll people online and destroy their reputations.

Fwiw, 'autocracy' means "a country, state, or society governed by one person with absolute power," and has nothing to do with any of this. There's no 'auto' here, no governing, and any power involved is far from absolute...

Freedom of speech doors not mean freedom from consequences for what one says. If someone says shitheel things, their 'reputation' is allowed to suffer...

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#580

Post by overgard » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:50 AM UTC

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #411

ThinkBeat wrote: post #371

One part of the article: This is about a guy who wrote a book on his own time, published it outside of work. Someone did not like some parts of the book and the guy had to quit his job? There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work. I write fictional stories in my spare time (never at work), I enjoy doing it. Some people enjoy reading them (I can't figure out why) It is a sad day for a Democracy when I…

> There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work. We've had this discussion already, but claiming sexist views is going to be a problem for you whether you do it at work or elsewhere because of how laws around hostile work environments and notice work. Particularly, if you go on to actually create a hostile work environment (as one might reasonably suppose you will, having publicly espoused the relevant…

From what I've read/heard, the "sexist" stuff is way out of context. Even if it's not, there's no need to pre-charge someone with a crime because they might have opinions you don't like. IF he did something to create a hostile workspace (which from what I've heard of the guy's character is super unlikely), then that's when something should be done.