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Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

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Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#571

Post by SomewhatLikely »

kenhwang wrote: post #7

I'm partial to the O-ring explanation. Software engineering is uniquely multiplicative because it's possible for a software engineer to create software that does software engineering. Chemical/electrical/mechanical engineers can't use their field to automate their field. Doctors and lawyers are almost exclusively service jobs, unlike the manufacturing nature of engineering. Automation is a force multiplier, and softw…

I am too, and it seems testable, at least for large companies. Are the salaries bimodal within companies or not? If not, then the hypothesis would seem to hold water.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#572

Post by kamaal »

gaius wrote: post #298
kamaal wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Steam engine unfortunately can't make itself. So.

You most certainly can use a steam engine to make it possible to make a bigger steam engine by driving machine tools. So.

Stream engine can't modify itself. Sorry. Somebody using tool A to create tool B, isn't what we are discussing here.

Tool A should modify itself to become Tool B. And Tool B should modify itself to become Tool C and so on...

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#573

Post by s73v3r_ »

tryptophan wrote: post #506
s73v3r_ wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"However, capitalism (in the form of Walmart and its suppliers, for example) does seem quite efficient at supplying material things to poor people. " Does it? I don't know if I'd really agree with that.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/declining-global-poverty-... Like it or not, the greedy evil capitalists are making the world a better place for all of us.

Again, are they? Define "better".

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#574

Post by s73v3r_ »

badpun wrote: post #537
s73v3r_ wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy the argument that rich black kids commit crimes at higher rates. White and black people smoke weed at roughly the same rates, yet black people are far, far, far more likely to be prosecuted for it.

It's not an argument, merely an unknown. Considering that black people have elements of their own culture that are anti-hard work ("acting white") and pro-crime ("gangsta rap"), I wouldn't be suprised if this culture managed to spoil even the kids from the good homes to some degree. BTW how do you know that white and black people smoke weed at roughly the same rates?

There have been studies on that very thing. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/04/the-b...

If you look, Figures 21 and 22 show usage rates to be about the same. However, if you look down at Figure 10, you'll see a huge disparity in arrest rates.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#575

Post by luckydata »

duderific wrote: post #513
luckydata wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineer turned product manager here: there is way too much yak shaving involved in bring a software engineer. Dealing with all the poorly written libraries, unpredictable bugs and shitty APIs made me realize it wasn't something I wanted to do 12 hours per day for the rest of my life. I enjoy the intellectual challenge but I enjoy less figuring out which version of which package crashes my app

12 hours a day, WTF? I've never seen anyone in any of the several companies I've worked for work 12 hours day regularly. I'm sure it happens but that's definitely not normal for software development, so to say "for the rest of your life" is a little misguided. Perhaps you were being a bit hyperbolic.

When (and where) I was studying CS programmers were quite unglamorous and had famously long working days. I obviously didn't mean it literally but I was trying to make the point that the grind was (is?) a very real part of the job.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#576

Post by SZJX »

I think the simplest explanation is that the number of jobs has been exploding but the number of people who really know their stuffs isn't keeping up. It takes time for any population to adjust to a new situation. Surely it's hard to master EE etc. as well but how many companies really need EE engineers anyways. I've been keeping explaining to others that in EE etc. many probably get a PhD before they apply for a job in a company like Intel or maybe at least a second-rate OEM company which truly needs somebody to design/test their hardware, while literally every company needs somebody who can program. The talk of "not understanding" this thing just sounds like exaggerated posturing. I don't think there's anything very hard to grasp about it. The situation might well change in a few years with the maturation of AI-based program generation technologies and the saturation of population. We'll just have to see.

Also most foreign programmers actually already have to pay a fortune (many via their rich parents) to study in the US in the first place before they get the OPT/visa, so they already came from rich families and it's a kind of like the situation with lawyers/consultants/financiers where such an elitist circle gets elitist pay as well.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#577

Post by aidenn0 »

Kephael wrote: post #274
watwut wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you dont have college debt and your kids will be able to study at college without debt.

College is inexpensive in the US. Even top privates are affordable if you choose an appropriate career such as software engineering at a top company, management consulting, investment banking, medicine, or big law. You don't spend 50k/yr at a top private school to be a school teacher unless your family is already very wealthy. Paying $30k/yr at even a top state school is not a good idea to enter low paying career fie…

$56k in tuition, fees, and books to graduate from my alma-mater in-state at today's rates[1]. Tuition nearly tripled from 2000 to 2012 and then they froze tuition by reducing the number of slots for in-state students (thus raising the average tuition charged without changing the sticker price).

Also, most public schools will not hire teachers without a 4-year degree, so saying that those going into low-earning fields like teaching ought-not get a degree is questionable at best.

Hiring credentials is an arms race, so if everyone else is getting a degree you're going to have a bad time if you don't -- even for fiends in which no degree is logically required.

1: http://www.admissions.purdue.edu/costsandfinaid/tuitionfees....

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#578

Post by jopsen »

hoosieree wrote: post #468
logfromblammo wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Writing software is not difficult. Anyone can do it. The hard part is learning to structure your thinking such that the software you will be writing will actually solve a problem as it currently exists in a cost-effective way. With that skill, you don't even always need to know how to write software programs. Sometimes, you're better off delegating specific tasks to humans. When someone hands you a problem like "make…

No real programmer would propose an O(N) solution like that. Here's O(1): elephant.invisible = true;

Careful your not over-engineering :)

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#579

Post by foo232323 »

mcmacintosh wrote: post #541
foo232323 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my experience so far (cs/ee, software developer): work experience is more important than grades, current tech stack, interested/knowledgeable in what you're doing, networking (xing/linkedin helped quite a lot), bigger company for the first role also helped with salary. started out with about 58k (~13.8 salaries + bonus + >40 vacation days), quickly went up to around 80k (2yrs)

Thanks a lot for the answer! By networking on xing/linkedin you mean that you were reaching out to people? Asking for positions?

Nope actually just being on there (with a current profile) helped a lot. Currently at least here in Germany there are a _lot_ of open positions in my field. At the moment I (as well as other colleagues I talk to) get multiple requests a week. There are a lot of uninteresting ones, but still..

Also: What's mentioned here: https://thehftguy.com/2017/01/23/career-advice-and-salary-ne...

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#580

Post by foo232323 »

ju-st wrote: post #276
brational wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's absurd I have multiple german friends >70k euro + all the other benefits. All stem yes but only 1 is a phd. Frankfurt, Berlin, and Stuttgart too so not just 1 isolated city.

6k base means 80k all-in/year which is the highest union level (e.g. IG metall EG17 in Baden-Wurttemberg). You can reach this level only on a specialist level (PhD) position, with very senior >> 3 years experience or as a manager.

It actually is a igm contract. Base salary + "freiwillige Leistungszulage". Also I haven't had significantly less in my last job (in the last position there). Also a lot of friends (engineers/Maschinenbau mostly) earn (at least) the same. All at around 80k (with a 40h work week) all in my age (i.e. around 3-5 years out of university). And yes, bigger companies.
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