Is developer compensation becoming bimodal? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#271

Post by vostok » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 4:32 PM UTC

aaavl2821 wrote: post #147

foamflower wrote: post #139

One (semi-pedantic) quibble with the article: there absolutely are barriers to entry for programming. Programming is hard! These barriers may not be artificial, but they are real. To use a non-software example, there are barriers to entry to chip manufacturers and power companies even under anarchy. Fabs are tremendously hard to build. Power plants are extremely hard to build. Building up knowledge and skills about c…

I think there are two interesting correlaries: 1) programming seems to be one of the only "hard" professions that pays well (compared to math researchers, hard science researchers, or even things like some social work -- that's really hard in entirely different ways). Of course I'm probably missing some hard stuff that pays well 2) programming seems to be the "hardest" of the high paying jobs mentioned. Once you get…

I think I have to disagree with both statements.

banking - extremely long hours with unpredictable work, huge attrition rate (most people who start in banking don't stay in banking), eventual career progression is into sales

consulting - long hours, weekly travel, huge attrition rate (most people who start in consulting don't stay in consulting), eventual career progression is into sales

law - long hours, high attrition rate (most people who start in big law don't stay in big law), eventual career progression is into sales

At least for me software engineering is much easier than any of those.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#272

Post by bjourne » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 4:33 PM UTC

barrkel wrote: post #177

bjourne wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tbt, I haven't seen that much evidence that correlates developer ability with salary. For example, developers living in the Silicon Valley are paid the most. Not because they are the best, but because they are living in the Silicon Valley. Geographical factors play a much bigger role in compensation than developer ability.

Have you investigated the correlation between developer location and developer ability? Do you think developers who are very good want to work with the best, thinking the best are in SV, then move to SV? Or perhaps they think they'll get the best return on their effort if they're working on software with big impact, and software with the biggest consumer impact is mostly written in SV?

I didn't know the United States had unrestricted immigration. :) You're probably right that Silicon Valley developers on average are a little bit sharper than most everyone else. But not by that much. People have other priorities than getting the best colleagues, such as living close to family and in places that feel like home.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#273

Post by commandlinefan » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 4:36 PM UTC

mncolinlee wrote: post #237

foamflower wrote: post #139

One (semi-pedantic) quibble with the article: there absolutely are barriers to entry for programming. Programming is hard! These barriers may not be artificial, but they are real. To use a non-software example, there are barriers to entry to chip manufacturers and power companies even under anarchy. Fabs are tremendously hard to build. Power plants are extremely hard to build. Building up knowledge and skills about c…

This is absolutely true. I've claimed for years that programming is easy and it's not hard to teach to children, but I started when I was six. For older people, the field is hard to break into due to a cognitive barrier I've seen. "I don't know how to program and computers are mysterious-- therefore I don't know how to learn how to program." The biggest impediment to much larger participation in the top tiers of soft…

It's not just old people. When I was a kid, the Commodore 64 was the absolute state of the art in consumer computer hardware. What I was able to produce in C64 Basic after a few months of trying was, at least to a first order of approximation, comparable to the sorts of things that were considered professional software back then: the machine just couldn't do that much, so writing a simple game with an amorphous blob that was controlled by the joystick and shot at other amorphous blobs was not _that_ far off from the sorts of games you could buy; I felt like I was doing "real" programming. Compare that to the situation today. Modern games have gigabytes of 3D rendered playfields. Even iphone games like jungle run are in 3D. But what a beginner can produce after a few months of practice still probably looks like something that might have been state-of-the-art on a C64 back in 1986 (in fact, may be harder, because the development tools are so fragmented these days). What felt like a real accomplishment to me when I was 12 feels like failure to my kids - once they realize what a hurdle they have to climb, they wonder if their efforts might be better spent elsewhere.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#274

Post by Kephael » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 4:36 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #66

foo232323 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's about what I get after taxes, too (in EUR, ~3.6k EUR), but my retirement (with 7% interest) and healthcare costs are covered completely. Also I have about 40 vacation days and a 37h work week :)

And you dont have college debt and your kids will be able to study at college without debt.

College is inexpensive in the US. Even top privates are affordable if you choose an appropriate career such as software engineering at a top company, management consulting, investment banking, medicine, or big law. You don't spend 50k/yr at a top private school to be a school teacher unless your family is already very wealthy. Paying $30k/yr at even a top state school is not a good idea to enter low paying career fields. Most people major in fields that are an extension of general high school studies, these majors are traps and should not be offered as they do not provide additional earnings and only serve as a four to six year timeout from the labor force as well an employment program for professors.

I have multiple degrees from US schools and zero debt.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#275

Post by maxander » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 4:36 PM UTC

namelost wrote: post #158

foamflower wrote: post #139

One (semi-pedantic) quibble with the article: there absolutely are barriers to entry for programming. Programming is hard! These barriers may not be artificial, but they are real. To use a non-software example, there are barriers to entry to chip manufacturers and power companies even under anarchy. Fabs are tremendously hard to build. Power plants are extremely hard to build. Building up knowledge and skills about c…

If you want to know just how hard programming is, try teaching it to someone. Programmers have to remember a vast amount of domain knowledge. Consider the basic task of choosing where you are going to store some data, well first you need to know which options exist and there's dozens of them (do you want Postgres, SQLite, Redis, LevelDB, ..?). Then you need to know the strengths and weaknesses of each. And I hope you…

> Programmers have to remember a vast amount of domain knowledge. Consider the basic task of choosing where you are going to store some data, well first you need to know which options exist and there's dozens of them (do you want Postgres, SQLite, Redis, LevelDB, ..?). Then you need to know the strengths and weaknesses of each. And I hope you have been keeping your knowledge up-to-date because the answer in 2018 is very different to the answer in 2008.

I'm pretty sure 90% of us would just look for a Stack Exchange question describing a bunch of popular database platforms and choose whichever looked best after thinking about it for a few minutes, and that outside of extreme circumstances (>terabytes of data, distributed over an actually unreliable network, other exotica) almost any option would work well enough.

Which is to say, programming is complicated but it's not very precise. Compare to mechanical engineering, where if you use the wrong steel your bridge will fall down; or to medicine, where if you prescribe the wrong drug someone might just die. So while there's lots that's useful for a programmer to know, if they don't know it they can get by alright almost all the time, and it's really hard for their managers to tell the difference. (Which is also why we can get away with not having a "programming school" beyond a handful of required courses for a CS degree.) So it's hard for this to seem like a very effective barrier to entry.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#276

Post by ju-st » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 4:37 PM UTC

brational wrote: post #230

ju-st wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

6k is even above IG Metall pay schemes, you will never get 6k in Germany 3years after graduation. I call bullshit. It may be possible if you have a PhD or for some not engineering related reason are rising ranks very fast.

That's absurd I have multiple german friends >70k euro + all the other benefits. All stem yes but only 1 is a phd. Frankfurt, Berlin, and Stuttgart too so not just 1 isolated city.

6k base means 80k all-in/year which is the highest union level (e.g. IG metall EG17 in Baden-Wurttemberg). You can reach this level only on a specialist level (PhD) position, with very senior >> 3 years experience or as a manager.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#277

Post by vkou » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 4:38 PM UTC

jdmichal wrote: post #269

foamflower wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to know just how hard programming is, try teaching it to someone. > The lack of barriers to entry actually makes it harder. There are "law schools" and "med schools" to teach you all the knowledge required to become a lawyer or a doctor. There is no "programming school", every programmer is self-taught. A computer science degree hardly scratches the surface. +1024 I have said quite a few times that the…

Yep. I've talked before that we are doing a huge disservice by not focusing on the sequential logic of programming, which is the first barrier to overcome. Also, we reinforce memorization over problem solving in maths throughout school. Hearing students say, "When are we ever going to use this?", was not uncommon when I was in school 15+ years ago. And as far as I can tell, the push for standardized curriculum and te…

I've been teaching my partner bits and pieces of programming. Sequential logic, and control flow were some one of the easier topics.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#278

Post by commandlinefan » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 4:38 PM UTC

aphextron wrote: post #134

>Another possibility is that U.S. immigration laws act as a protectionist barrier to prop up programmer compensation. It seems impossible for this to last (why shouldn’t there by really valuable non-U.S. companies), but it does appear to be somewhat true for now. I feel like this is the real issue here. The reason that the US has great companies is simply from the availability of large amounts of capital. And if the…

> U.S. immigration laws act as a protectionist barrier to prop up programmer compensation

It's almost impossible to immigrate to England (much harder than the US), yet programmers in SF are far better compensated than those in London.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#279

Post by evilduck » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 4:39 PM UTC

kimdcmason wrote: post #179

d0lph wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Offshore developed code is not usually the same quality. Not that we all deserve huge salaries, but code quality important.

"Offshore developed code is not usually the same quality." American exceptionalism and absolutely wrong.

Outsourcing creates all sorts of new project planning and communication challenges that most companies are not accustomed to managing. Add in significant timezone offsets, language and cultural barriers, lower communication fidelity and often a tinge of resentment and you've got a recipe for low quality if the project is completed at all.

I don't think this has to be American to be true.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#280

Post by salmonfamine » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 4:39 PM UTC

epmatsw wrote: post #263

salmonfamine wrote: post #212

I think the explanation for bimodal dev salaries is pretty clear, and is similar to the explanation for the bi-modality in Lawyer salaries. Google, Facebook, Amazon, and whatever other big name you want to throw in the pot, are competing for developers. However, they are not competing for the same developers as Epic Systems, for example. FAANG (or whatever) are competing for a highly skilled subset of devs that can m…

Interesting to choose Epic as an example. In my exit interview there (leaving for SV), the whole interview was about how they could be more competitive when hiring against Google etc (obvious answers were vacation policies and equity, where Epic was woefully behind). So Epic is (or was, ~3 years ago) definitely competing for the same developers as those big companies.

I just chose Epic because the author did. I honestly don't know anything about it.

However, I do have to point out that it seems that Epic is trying to become more competitive with regard to that same subset of engineers that Google hires. Presumably, if they're trying to become more competitive, then they're not yet competitive. Either Epic will have to pay some engineers the same as what Google pays (including equity etc.) or they won't remain competitive for that small pool of devs.

Also, worth noting that I'm saying that as someone that was once rejected by Google on a first-round phone screen.