I noticed some disturbing privacy defaults in Windows 10 • Hacker News Board

Re: I noticed some disturbing privacy defaults in Windows 10

#561

Post by Qwertious » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 7:42 AM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #193

Animats wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Windows is now essentially a personalized, cloud-based operating system with the primary interface as a personal assistant." Who wanted that for desktop computers or laptops? This is not going to fly with business customers. Microsoft has already bombed twice in the business space, with Windows Vista and Windows 8. This looks like another bomb. Windows 7 is still pretty good, and it will probably be the main Microso…

>Who wanted that for desktop computers or laptops? I did. Linux and OSX are still available for whoever wants them. You can stick with Windows 7 if you want, that's just fine. I like Cortana. I like my software knowing what I like and what I'm interested in. It makes my life easier, which is what computers were invented for. I can see why some people might not, and to be fair I use Linux on my work laptop because the…

Windows 7 but with more features would be nice.

Re: I noticed some disturbing privacy defaults in Windows 10

#562

Post by richmarr » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 7:57 AM UTC

johnchristopher wrote: post #514

richmarr wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just about advertising. By looking at customer data in aggregate you can learn more about behaviour patterns and support the things your customers might be interested in doing. Buying products is one of the things you might be interested in doing. That said, this whole thing gives me the creeps and I'm glad I'm no longer a Microsoftie.

Frankly, I don't buy it when it's on Google, FB or MS scale. Their incentives is to maximize profits, not the user's happiness, wants or needs. Sometimes the later might help optimize the first but it's not the objective behind all the scraping. Those improvements could be done with much less intruding anyway (be it for the sake of it or because johnny hacker is going to release those data someday).

> Their incentives is to maximize profits, not the user's happiness, wants or needs

Sure, although user happiness (broadly) drives market share so they need to maximise that to maximise profit.

Re: I noticed some disturbing privacy defaults in Windows 10

#563

Post by richmarr » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 8:11 AM UTC

restalis wrote: post #512

richmarr wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just about advertising. By looking at customer data in aggregate you can learn more about behaviour patterns and support the things your customers might be interested in doing. Buying products is one of the things you might be interested in doing. That said, this whole thing gives me the creeps and I'm glad I'm no longer a Microsoftie.

"By looking at customer data in aggregate you can learn more about behaviour patterns and support the things your customers might be interested in doing." That could be done locally, without sharing the private data. The local computing agent can then look up in the public (like the pool of those who deliberately published content for all to see) for information that may be of interest to the user. That would have be…

> That could be done locally

It could be done locally, but in order to not share any data with the server you'd need to run the analysis (with all of the associated data) on the local machine, which unless I'm missing something would add some non-trivial constraints, e.g.

- Getting research-grade analysis code up to local-install quality levels, keeping that code updated

- Bandwidth and HDD space for large datasets

- The additional load on the CPU, memory, battery, and messaging that to the customer

- The legal and privacy implication of all that opt-in data being transferred and processed on thousands of opt-out customers' machines

- The need to have an entirely duplicated system because some people would rather opt-in and not have to run all this stuff run on their already-creaking-under-the-weight-of-windows-and-outlook-and-word-and-antivirus laptop

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but from this view I can understand why they didn't want to do it this way

Re: I noticed some disturbing privacy defaults in Windows 10

#564

Post by tdkl » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 8:27 AM UTC

Qwertious wrote: post #561

freehunter wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Who wanted that for desktop computers or laptops? I did. Linux and OSX are still available for whoever wants them. You can stick with Windows 7 if you want, that's just fine. I like Cortana. I like my software knowing what I like and what I'm interested in. It makes my life easier, which is what computers were invented for. I can see why some people might not, and to be fair I use Linux on my work laptop because the…

Windows 7 but with more features would be nice.

Windows 7 with speed of 8.1 and virtual desktop support is all I ever wanted. Not the Metro abomination.

Re: I noticed some disturbing privacy defaults in Windows 10

#565

Post by kleiba » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 1:07 PM UTC

Amezarak wrote: post #518

kleiba wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who wanted that for desktop computers or laptops? This is not going to fly with business customers. ...nor with some private customers. Microsoft seems to be overlooking that not all nations are so happy about "the cloud" as the average American seems to be. Germany for one, where I currently live, is much more sceptical of sharing personal data -- potentially motivated by some of its 20th century history. But all th…

> Transparently syncing documents with an external server that you have absolutely no control over is really nothing such a user wants. Onedrive on Windows 10 explicitly asked me "what folders do you want to sync?" when it first popped up.

Do you have the option to say "none"?

Re: I noticed some disturbing privacy defaults in Windows 10

#566

Post by drdaeman » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 2:06 PM UTC

mmebane wrote: post #557

drdaeman wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read this warning on release day, went to read this myself and haven't found such statement neither in ToS, nor in Privacy Policy. This paragraph (about private communications and files in private folders) seems to be gone from their Privacy Policy. Google cache confirms it was present (in PP, not ToS), but I suppose MS spotted had this insane statement and removed in a hurry - or hid somewhere else, deeper in small…

Did you expand the sections in the Privacy Statement [1]? Open the page in Firefox or Chrome, hit F12 to get to the browser console, then run this to expand all the sections: $('.learnMoreLabel').click() If you search the page for "disclose", you'll see that that exact wording is no longer present, but very similar wording is in the "Reasons We Share Personal Data" and "Skype - Partner companies" sections. [1]: https…

Thanks! Yes, now I see this.

Re: I noticed some disturbing privacy defaults in Windows 10

#567

Post by quadrangle » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 3:53 PM UTC

bpodgursky wrote: post #251

quadrangle wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not consent to you and others giving Microsoft (or Google or Facebook etc…) all the personal information this necessarily reveals about me when you accept their terms and have any electronic interactions with me.

That's not your consent to give. If you tell me your name, I'm free to repeat that to whoever I want. If you aren't ok with public information being re-broadcasted, don't go outside.

I'm not talking about public information. I'm talking about private communication between you and I. Like truly private, private where you are happy to keep our communication confidential. Except now you have to have the technical know-how and proactive burden of keeping it confidential because Microsoft (and Google in other cases etc) sweep up everything you do.

In other words, if you consent to Microsoft tracking you, it means I cannot trust you in private communication even if you would otherwise be trustworthy person.

This is completely distinct concern from what is true public information.

Re: I noticed some disturbing privacy defaults in Windows 10

#568

Post by quadrangle » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 3:57 PM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #242

quadrangle wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not consent to you and others giving Microsoft (or Google or Facebook etc…) all the personal information this necessarily reveals about me when you accept their terms and have any electronic interactions with me.

I appreciate what you're trying to say, but ultimately... Sucks to be you. If you don't want others to share that data, you'll have to stop interacting with them.

You mean "sucks to be any normal person today."

The ramifications of the destruction of anonymity and privacy affect everyone whether or not we understand enough right now to get this.

Also, "sucks to be all these people who would benefit from interacting with me but where I may stop interacting".

This is not a problem that is a personal, individual problem. This is a social problem. Period.

Re: I noticed some disturbing privacy defaults in Windows 10

#569

Post by Qwertious » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 4:47 PM UTC

x5n1 wrote: post #231

batou wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely no one wanted it. No one asked for it. We were spun a load of marketing disguised as listening and attention. This turned out to be exactly what Microsoft wanted which was another aggressive move against customers both business and consumer. Despite all this the noise and confusion and dubious love for the products is shining out of the arses of every non technical news source. What did we expect? I've lef…

Now if can only do the same with Google and Android, we'd be all set. Why does Google get a get out of jail for free card in this? Android is like the spying on everything you do operating system. Your location, your voice, your pictures, your passwords, I mean fuck... There is nothing Android doesn't know about you that it doesn't share with Google and on request the US government.

Why does Google get a GOoJF card? Well, they don't.

I'm going to ditch Android for a free-er OS when I have the money, although if possible I want to get a [Fairphone](https://www.fairphone.com/) (tl;dr 1. no shady business practices/exploitation, 2. modular with replaceable parts (bonus points for having an integrated protective case), 3. Fairphone V2 will be 100% Free Software (or at least, the firmware/drivers will be), 4. costs $800 as a result).

I'm actually really interested in seeing the Fairphone be a thing.

Re: I noticed some disturbing privacy defaults in Windows 10

#570

Post by MichaelMoser123 » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 6:11 PM UTC

Inthenameofmine wrote: post #191

Animats wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Windows is now essentially a personalized, cloud-based operating system with the primary interface as a personal assistant." Who wanted that for desktop computers or laptops? This is not going to fly with business customers. Microsoft has already bombed twice in the business space, with Windows Vista and Windows 8. This looks like another bomb. Windows 7 is still pretty good, and it will probably be the main Microso…

I'm not sure, it really depends in Microsoft's execution of the vision. Over the years, if they really make Cortana useful and seamles pdates and systems maintenance the default due to the new "cloud" nature of Windows, they might see a similar adoption or switching pattern as SaaS solutions have seen in business. At this point most traditional or slow businesses still using licensed software with local IT admins are…

i also suspect that they are slashing their cash cow (corporate users among them) for the vague promise to be like google and facebook (the promise of add dollars).

Good luck with that one.