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Ageless Linux – Software for humans of indeterminate age

agelesslinux.org

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Re: Ageless Linux – Software for humans of indeterminate age

#561
post #14

Something remarkable and unsettling is how the age verification debate has popped up almost simultaneously in the US, UK, and EU. With the same logical fallacies. Pretty telling about how transnational lobbies and their interests work. Controlling what children do online is a solved problem: Parenting and parental control applications.

"Parenting and parental control applications."

Correct. For the life of me I cannot see how this can ever work in practice.

For such a scheme to work all users would have to be physically and electronically locked out from accessing any feature of a computer that would alter its function.

This has to be sheer madness. Every general computing device from small embedded controllers, to Raspberry Pis to the most powerful desktop computers would have more in common with electricity meters and their embossed lead anti-tampering seals than present-day computers. Can you imagine the utter chaos of the state conducting regular anti-tampering audits of every state-registered PC? And what about the millions of legacy PCs that could not be adapted?

Moreover, using such a computer would be more akin to using an automatic teller machine with its strictly controlled and limited functions, the notion of "general computing" as we now know it would cease to exist.

The only practical solution is to make parents responsible—that is to ensure their kids do not have unfettered/unmanaged access to computers. Responsibility could be extended to all adults, anyone deliberately providing unsupervised/unfettered computer access to minors could be charged with child abuse.

If parents aren't prepared to extend their parental responsibilities to also include computing devices, phones, social media and such then the state could impose penalties. Of course, for that to work society would have to agree as it now does over outlawing the physical punishing of children (not that long ago that wasn't the case).

No doubt arriving at a society-wide consensus would take time but it's doable. Societal views do change, for example, when I was a kid we got the cane for misbehaving, caning kids is now outlawed often with heavy penalties.

Finally, I also find your point about the age verification debate popping up simultaneously in the US, UK, and EU as very troubling. I'm not a conspiracy theorist but evidence suggests there are many lobbyists acting behind the scenes of whom we are unaware (same goes with the encryption debate).

It's this sort of hidden subterfuge that's undermining and pulling our democracies apart. Little wonder that these days many citizens have little faith in institutions and those whose governance they're under.

Re: Ageless Linux – Software for humans of indeterminate age

#562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to agree with you, but if it's my system and my browser reporting my bracket, wouldn't it be trivially easy to inject an http-header with the age I want to report? And by "trivially easy" I mean "somebody already posted how-to for windows to stackoverflow"

The problem is not that it's hard to cheat (it's easy), the problem is it makes you officially a liar and liable for "illegal app use". It might not be a problem for you , but some underage kid, who lied about their age, gets addicted to a game with in-game purchases and gets into financial trouble now has no recourse against the company who made the addicting game.

There's no liability in the law for a child who uses an over-18-signaled account and accesses over-18 content, nor for a parent who gave that account to the child. It's all the parent's decision if the child should be restricted or not.

Re: Ageless Linux – Software for humans of indeterminate age

#563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You see a slippery slope and I see a reasonable compromise. It's a wildly popular opinion that we should control which age groups can use social media[0][1][2]. Do you think these polls are astroturfed? If not, it's clear people want some sort of age verification, and I think California's way is the least intrusive. And I know someone is going to say 'then we should regulate social media sites to force them to verify…

I'm curious what a poll of public opinion would say about certain demographics in 1930's Germany. Does that seem like a good argument for what the government should and shouldn't do? A reasonable compromise? With who? Who here is somehow required to "compromise"?

You are comparing a "I am over 18" checkbox to Nazi Germany and Adolf Hitler. Maybe it's time to think about whether you're overreacting.

Re: Ageless Linux – Software for humans of indeterminate age

#564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because it's easy doesn't mean it's right. Give legislative busybodies the ability to force this little flag into the OS because it's no big deal, and next year they'll say "hey, make sure you only report 18+ if secure boot is enabled" and 5 years later it'll be "hey, you can only report 18+ if one of our Identity Partners has confirmed it." It's the principle of the matter. The State should not be allowed to co…

"It's the principle of the matter. The State should not be allowed to compel speech (what code you write)" What a stretch man. Is banning nuclear weapons a restriction of free speech because it compels speech (the blueprints and specs engineers write).

It's more like mandating every nuclear weapon must have a prominent safety switch.

Re: Ageless Linux – Software for humans of indeterminate age

#565

Anyone ever heard about the story of how Phill Zimmerman made an absolute clown of the US federal government by publishing the source code of PGP as a book? History of computing and open source is full of clever subversiveness. If back in the past hackers had the same attitude crying about complying otherwise fines we would have nothing today.

Their subversion was protecting our speech and privacy from the government. Our subversion is.......... letting 12-year-olds access gambling websites???

Re: Ageless Linux – Software for humans of indeterminate age

#566

In this case, yes, this is probably a violation of the law as it is written. But I doubt law enforcement even notices or cares. You’re not actually doing anything to the kids. Maybe hypothetically you’re not setting/respecting an age flag in a web browser, but that’s the worst thing going on. So it’s a nice statement but ultimately hollow because the devs aren’t at any real risk of being arrested or fined. This isn’t…

Until the normies come in droves because their dear leader decided that it’s illegal to speak ill of him on a computer, or whatever drives mass change. The regulations will follow, and they will say what we were doing the whole time is impossible and would never work.

This is fantasy

Re: Ageless Linux – Software for humans of indeterminate age

#567

There is no way that this will happen on any Linux box that I use. And this is why I'm an enemy of device attestation and the requirement to register operating systems in the first place, no matter whether it is Apple or Microsoft.

Looks like you're yet another person speaking out of their ass. There is no age attestation in the California bill. You specify an age at account creation that sites and apps must query. And they cannot fall back on other methods like uploading your drivers license to websites which is rapidly becoming a thing in red states. There is no verification. Just a system that enables your OS to respond to age queries and pr…

Are you aware that there are bills along similar lines in a majority of US states and at least one is reported to require using identity validating services to ensure the age is correct?

How will that be accomplished?

How will these laws be ammended in the future?

Re: Ageless Linux – Software for humans of indeterminate age

#568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm completely baffled why anyone still engages with the "official" framing around this. Obviously, it's not for protecting children. Obviously, it's a technocratic trojan horse for increasing surveillance capabilities on digital systems. This is so cynically anti-democratic that they obfuscate the real purpose, don't even bother to make it plausible, and everyone is left talking about how "awful it is" that it's alr…

It's because none of the stuff you say is obvious is actually obvious. You might be totally right about all of it (my own view is that regardless of what the intention is, this stuff will inevitably be misused), but it needs to be demonstrated that you are. The word obvious has a different meaning. This is a pretty common phenomenon in politics, where people have a political view that is obvious to them, but other pe…

This is a great point. I highly recommend "Liminal Thinking", which explains how what he calls "Battles for the Obvious" like this get started.

Re: Ageless Linux – Software for humans of indeterminate age

#569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not that it's hard to cheat (it's easy), the problem is it makes you officially a liar and liable for "illegal app use". It might not be a problem for you , but some underage kid, who lied about their age, gets addicted to a game with in-game purchases and gets into financial trouble now has no recourse against the company who made the addicting game.

Does this imagined underage kid that right now lies about his age in UI-form have a case because it wasn't on OS level? I genuinely don't know, and it's hard to see what's the differences between those two cases are.

I'm not a lawyer, but it's clear that this changes the narrative. If some technical restriction is in place (OS level age statement with apps who enforce it) and the kid circumvents that, it's easy for a company to claim that they did their part and all blame is on the kid. Without that, it's trickier for the company who intentionally created some addictive product to prove that they did enough to protect the kid.

Re: Ageless Linux – Software for humans of indeterminate age

#570
post #176

I can not help but think that this is performative AI slop We get it, you’re against the government and big tech

This is real, we will not comply with authoritarian laws that nobody voted for. Seriously.

You should have a look through the lawbooks for more laws to not comply with. Do the carrying a duck across state lines one next. Maybe a Linux distro that pumps your own gas.
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