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We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

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Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#561
post #534
post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've often dreamed of a system where normal users, give money as a promotion for a certain issue to be fixed or even created, if the user wants feature X then he should be able to give an incentive towards that feature to be added into the software that they use, developers do bounties instead, the user doesn't have to give much only a dollar, but if many users want feature X, then the money/donations pool creating h…

All we need to do is create Kalshi contracts! Users bet that a fix won't be created for Issue 123 by date XYZ, developers take the other side of the contract and then do the best kind of insider trading: changing the facts on the ground. We did it!

And a few weeks into that arbitrage traders will catch wind and start betting on the more likely bug closures and then the devs that fix the bug will end up owing money!

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#562
post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the most used paid and proprietary software is windows, and its users do not matter at all to how it implements its features.

Users matter a ton to windows. Specifically, the users with a hundred thousand or more licenses. Their unhappiness threatens Windows' profits in a meaningful way. Why do you think all the new secure boot and TPM features were added to Windows 11? All that work wasn't free to implement. But big businesses really want that degree of secure fleet management, and they're the customers who matter. So going back to the GP…

I genuinely doubt the users with a hundred thousand or more licenses asked for Copilot 365 Suite.

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#563
post #200

It sounds funny, but it's not. I once issued a bug to them that didn't have enough information about how to reproduce... and I was lambasted on Reddit and eventually just deleted my account there it was so terrifying. Some dev teams do not mess around. In fact I've shied off most social media since and no longer issue bug reports to any company, I was scarred deep over the treatment.

There's a strange irony in the replies here, where people apparently lack the necessary information to reproduce your experience.

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#564
post #211

Long time ago Sourceforge and then GitHub promoted into the current default the model of open source distribution which is not sustainable and I doubt it is something that the founding fathers of Free Software/Open Source had in mind. Open source licenses are about freedom of using and modifying software. The movement grew out of frustration that commercial software cannot be freely improved and fixed by the user to…

> I doubt it is something that the founding fathers of Free Software/Open Source had in mind. Free Software sure, that wasn't the point. Open Source, that was exactly the point. Eric S Raymond, one of the original promoters of the concept of Open Source coined Linus' Law: Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow Which definitely points in the direction of receiving bug reports and patches from users of the applica…

ESR was from a time that was radically different than the the VSCode / brew / macOS / Ubuntu centric era we have today.

  https://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html#believe5

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#565
post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if the system is fair. If I as a maintainer want to scam I can just close the report as invalid, collect the $$$. Then a week latter I fix the issue with a commit that looks like it is unrelated. I wouldn't do the above, but it is easy to see how I could run that scam.

You can look at how the maintainer dealt with previous bug reports to decide whether you can trust them or not. If there haven't been any previous bug reports but they nonetheless ask for a fee to help deal with the large volume of bug reports, yeah, that might be a scam. If you're running their software, maybe also check whether it's full of malware.

Good scammers pay out once in a while. Casinos hate it when everbody body loses, and love it when one person wins big - they need just enough losers to make money while enough winners to show off.

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone on the other side of the PR, the current situation makes things awkward for me, too. Occasionally, I'll make an actual fix to scratch some particular itch I have with the software, and I'm hesitant to even open a PR, because it's just going to 1. pile yet another PR onto the maintainer, and 2. might get dismissed out of hand because it's mistaken for AI slop or other low-effort spam that these attackers ar…

Totally get this. One thing we'd love to do is help make contribution patterns (not just guidelines) more visible to contributors, to help you get a better read of what's expected. Would that help? If so, where would you expect it to sit in your existing contribution flow?

I always thought it would be nice to see some kind of "maintainer profile" for each project, that the maintainers could set up: Is the project open to PRs? What is the quality bar for PRs? How much developer testing is expected before a PR is accepted? Are there any automated test coverage requirements/expectations? Sort of like a more structured version of CONTRIBUTING.md.

Also, statistics about past PRs: How long does it take, on average, before the maintainer responds to a PR, before it gets merged? What % are rejected or closed? How many edits do PRs for this project on average need before being accepted? What is the current incoming rate for PRs and what is the current merge rate? I could look at these and figure out if a project can sustain yet another incoming PR or if they are in over their heads. And it would help me understand what level of "done" they are expecting. Maybe some of these are even already available--i haven't really explored GitHub that much. Hope this helps.

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#567

Long time ago Sourceforge and then GitHub promoted into the current default the model of open source distribution which is not sustainable and I doubt it is something that the founding fathers of Free Software/Open Source had in mind. Open source licenses are about freedom of using and modifying software. The movement grew out of frustration that commercial software cannot be freely improved and fixed by the user to…

Years ago, I built what I thought was a pretty basic static site generator using HapiJS. I was using it for personal projects and after some convincing by friends, put it up on Github. My friends went on Reddit and posted it and then told me about it afterwards.

It initially got some decent traction and then all of a sudden, all the pull requests came, all the feature requests and then all the bug reports.

I kept telling people this was a side project, if they want to fork it go ahead, but this is not something I'm going to spend a ton of time on. Then all the hate started about how I put something out into the OSS community with no desire to support it. I was bad person, my code was shit and I should stop being a developer.

That was my first and last OSS project.

I applaud and respect the people who are committed to getting OSS out there, but for me, it was a horrible experience.

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#568
post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which of course is a lot less polite and causes a lot of friction. Most cultures have this, but it goes mostly unnoticed from the inside because one can read between the lines. "How are you?" can be asked just to be polite, and can cause friction when answered truthfully (rather than just politely, as the cultural dance requires). An Eastern European may not appreciate the insincerity of such a question.

A fairly common conversation starter for eastern europeans is "how are you doing?", "it sucks", "yeah it does, doesn't it?". The American style of being all flowers and butterflies can indeed be perceived as lying.

To be fair we Americans also poke fun at this. Here in the South I usually say, “Can’t complain,” and most people will finish the adage, “and it wouldn’t do any good if you did.”

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#569
post #490

Long time ago Sourceforge and then GitHub promoted into the current default the model of open source distribution which is not sustainable and I doubt it is something that the founding fathers of Free Software/Open Source had in mind. Open source licenses are about freedom of using and modifying software. The movement grew out of frustration that commercial software cannot be freely improved and fixed by the user to…

I've often dreamed of a system where normal users, give money as a promotion for a certain issue to be fixed or even created, if the user wants feature X then he should be able to give an incentive towards that feature to be added into the software that they use, developers do bounties instead, the user doesn't have to give much only a dollar, but if many users want feature X, then the money/donations pool creating h…

Are there any projects that have achieved anything close to this? I'm not against it in principle, but it seems like it ends up incurring issues from tiptoeing around wanting all the benefits of an incorporated business with employees or at least contractors without the stigma(?) of getting all official and putting someone in the hot seat of responsibility. Off the top of my head:

- A business has some intrinsic motivation however minuscule to fix unsexy issues like security problems or problems that aren't as visible to customers so they don't get hacked and sued and go under; in a pay-what-you-want bounty scheme all of your users are playing chicken to not be the one to put up the money for the fix. Instead they'll wait until it becomes a problem and fix it in their own branch; no reason to bother upstreaming it until someone comes forward putting up the money.

- IMO there's no way to measure cuts for something like this that can't be gamed. If you close out the bountied issue, but you make use of a bunch of utility code I contributed last week, who gets it? Or if the code I contributed is mostly a mechanical refactor of some very complex code someone else wrote? Do we divvy it up by lines of code, number of commits, etc, and that's just for the squint-and-it's-qualifiable metrics for engineers. No idea how you'd measure a cut for project managers. Someone also may be the steward of the repository and handle administrative work but not do a whole lot of feature-fixing, what cut do they get? Instead of juggling KPIs you can just pay all these people for their common contribution - time - and then you're back at something that businesses do really well.

- For any bounty system to work you need somewhere to track the bounties and hold money in escrow for payouts. Those services exist, they cost money to run, and they are going to take a cut. I'd assume they'd also invest and grow that money while they have it unless that's illegal for some reason I'm not aware of. An incorporated business keeps its bounties in the issue tracker, and its money in an account that accumulates interest that can go toward further development on the actual product instead of third-party support services. Crypto is a no-go here because that limits your contributor pool to exclusively crypto perverts, otherwise normal people have to speculate on it and convert it to normal useful money for a fee.

- I've worked at a place where the devs got to work on whatever they wanted. Required to, really, because there was very little interest or hands-on management from the owner in the direction of the product as long as sales were stable. We had a great time and got paid and we all learned a lot on company time and last I checked they are no longer in business.

- Timelines are a big factor too. If some open-source software I'm using is missing a big feature I'd like (and if post-2024, it's too substantial to just make a copy and have Copilot customize it for my use) I'm still not going to kick in the first $10 in the hopes that somebody someday builds that feature for me. I'm going to be dead or not using the software by then. If I thought the feature I wanted was worth $10,000 and I had $10,000 to kick towards it in the hopes that somebody somewhere would decide to build it, I would instead hire somebody on contract terms to do the work with a greater guarantee of results and some recourse if they screw me.

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#570
post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A fairly common conversation starter for eastern europeans is "how are you doing?", "it sucks", "yeah it does, doesn't it?". The American style of being all flowers and butterflies can indeed be perceived as lying.

It is fine if it is not lying but so often you ask how are you and get the flowers and butterflies response but when you sit 10 min more they start explaining how miserable they are: as a Dutchman, I do tend to ask why they said how great and excellent they were just minutes ago. And no, it is not just something you do out of politeness: if you just canned response to one thing, how do I know you don't have canned re…

It isn’t lying, it is what we consider an appropriate level of sharing. We don’t tend to want to put our burdens on people who may not be interested in hearing it.
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