We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own • Hacker News Board

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#561

Post by fsflover » Mon, Sep 01, 2025, 10:59 AM UTC

zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

> This is why it's so important to defend the real principles here not just the technical artefacts of them.

You're not wrong, but technical artefacts can be an important step in the right direction. I came to my bank, showed them my Librem 5 phone and asked where I can download an app for it. It was a much clearer message than "but Android isn't free!" (which is of course true). I do the same with governmental services. It also makes it much easier to explain to ordinary people that the choice must not be artificially restricted to just two megacorps.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#562

Post by AdamN » Mon, Sep 01, 2025, 11:01 AM UTC

Here's the deal for you young'ns. Richard Stallman (rms) had it right on this topic and alot of people had to fight to have the limited stack we have.

It's not enough though.

All we can do is make all the decisions possible to keep an open stack as viable as possible - even though what we have now is woefully incomplete. We need to push for this within our teams, within our companies, within our governments, in civil society, and everywhere else that we can because the corporate crowding out of a free technology stack will crowd out everything else if it's allowed to.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#563

Post by jacquesm » Mon, Sep 01, 2025, 11:04 AM UTC

yardstick wrote: post #292

cyphar wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the smallest nations have the legal right to permanently incarcerate, strip you of your assets or even murder you if you are in their sphere of influence. I would hope you'd agree those are not powers that we should grant to large corporations... I think it's shocking how many people Google can affect through its search algorithms (more than any nation on Earth) and yet there is no democratic system to hold them…

Kill, not murder. If the country ends your life they are doing it under their authority, not outside their authority.

Context is everything. There are plenty of instances of countries murdering people. Authority does not define murder, ethics does.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#564

Post by daniel_iversen » Mon, Sep 01, 2025, 11:08 AM UTC

This might be controversial but I'm not sure you should be able to install whatever you want on "hardware you own". Reason being (and I was trying hard to explore an "other side of the argument" and whether there was/is one) examples like Kindles, where I think originally Amazon had it as a loss leader to sell ebooks. I reckon they brought a great product into the market and established a new category (mass market ebooks and ebook readers) and if they want to restrict us from rooting it then so be it (they could not sell it at a loss if it was super easy to root and not even use it as a Kindle initially) as long as they're clear about the restrictions up-front. Thoughts? :)

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#565

Post by lwhi » Mon, Sep 01, 2025, 11:12 AM UTC

zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

We need an open web, with open principles and to prevent any commercial enterprise from dominating our social / tech sphere via monopolisation or methods of proprietary control.

This isn't a surprise. A vocal minority have been saying the same ad infinitum.

The need hasn't changed, and won't change; however there's a strong likelihood we'll get to a point where action isn't possible because we've passed the point of no return.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#566

Post by lwhi » Mon, Sep 01, 2025, 11:14 AM UTC

safety1st wrote: post #465

wvh wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I like about your comment is that it points out that all technical work-arounds are moot if people as a whole are not willing to stand up with pitchforks and torches to defend their freedoms. It will always come down to that. A handful of tech-savvy users with rooted devices and open-source software will not make a difference to the giant crushing machine that is the system. And I'm afraid most of us are part of…

Only competition can provide a solution. We have lost sight of this principle even though all Western democracies are built on the idea of separation of powers, and making it hard for any one faction of elites to gain full control and ruin things for everyone else. Make them fight with each other, let them get a piece of the pie, but never all of it. That's why we have multiple branches of government, multiple partie…

In fact true competition is only possible via open standards, protocols and technology stacks.

We need agreement to ensure the large corporations adhere to these.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#567

Post by mcv » Mon, Sep 01, 2025, 11:16 AM UTC

> It’s through this control of the operating system that Google is exerting control, not at the hardware layer.

True, but many phones use the hardware layer to prevent you from installing a different OS. It's all part of the same system designed to deny us real ownership of the computer we paid for.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#568

Post by tremon » Mon, Sep 01, 2025, 11:17 AM UTC

vbezhenar wrote: post #285

jacquesm wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google and Apple have more power than most nations. And that is what is wrong here. Even the smallest nation should be far more powerful than the largest corporation. But corporations are now more powerful than most nations, including some really big ones. So the only way to solve this is to for an umbrella for nations that offsets the power that these corporations have. The first thing you notice when you arrive a…

These are basics of capitalism. Company aims for profit. Bigger scale allows for better efficiency. So companies naturally grow big. The bigger they are, the easier for them to compete. Big companies have access to tremendous resources, so they can push laws by bribing law makers, advertising their agenda to the masses. There's no way around it, not without dismantling capitalism. Nations will serve to the corporatio…

Bigger scale allows for better efficiency.

This is dogma, not proven fact, and most people that argue this tend to use self-serving metrics and a tailored definition of "efficient". Some counterexamples: early Google was much more efficient in responding to market changes than the current top-heavy organization; small hospitals tend to have better health outcomes (both per patient and per dollar) than large chains. Tesla was able to innovate much faster than established behemoths.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#569

Post by xkcd1963 » Mon, Sep 01, 2025, 11:20 AM UTC

Why are folks so worried about this. If necessary we build a new generation of phones.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#570

Post by i80and » Mon, Sep 01, 2025, 11:22 AM UTC

abtinf wrote: post #249

i80and wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was there, Gandalf, 15 years ago. I think the last virus I saw in person was closer to 25 years ago, but I've done my time in the trenches. Locked-down app stores certainly have significant utility and even should maybe be the default depending on the device, but calling people "assholes" for asking for an escape hatch is extremely odd.

Let them use the hardware they want. Why does their ideology have to infect my device? I want a platform with no escape hatches. Yet they are intent of making this impossible for me. When I want open hardware, I have many options.

> When I want open hardware, I have many options.

Do you? Because respectfully it seems to me, looking at the phone market at least, that you're the party being exclusively catered to, and you're complaining bitterly that anybody else could be given a choice at all.