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We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

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Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#291

Post by sim7c00 »

josephg wrote: post #260
zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

My parents are getting old and they aren't tech savvy. The missing piece here is that I want my parents to have a computer they can safely do their banking on, without leaving them vulnerable to scams and viruses and the like. I like that they have iphones. Doing internet banking on their phone is safer than doing it on their desktop computer. Why is that? The reason is that the desktop PC security model is deeply fl…

most reason OSes are insecure is bexause they are designed badly regarding security. they are from a time it wasnt important and most ways of building them also from that same era. its hardly modernized -_-. sure its not the same OS as 20 years back,... it has a lot of layers of junk ontop.

again, no incentive to improve it. its either unpaid work or the OS vendor has a stake in it being insecure. (both exists)

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#292

Post by yardstick »

cyphar wrote: post #256
lukan wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And that is what is wrong here. Even the smallest nation should be far more powerful than the largest corporation" Since nations can be really small, I don't agree.

Even the smallest nations have the legal right to permanently incarcerate, strip you of your assets or even murder you if you are in their sphere of influence. I would hope you'd agree those are not powers that we should grant to large corporations... I think it's shocking how many people Google can affect through its search algorithms (more than any nation on Earth) and yet there is no democratic system to hold them…

Kill, not murder. If the country ends your life they are doing it under their authority, not outside their authority.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#293

Post by tonyhart7 »

ekianjo wrote: post #243
fastaguy88 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really not a libertarian, but why shouldn’t Netflix have the right to choose who they distribute content to? They negotiated conditions with the creators, why shouldn’t they be able to specify the DRM? No one is forcing you to subscribe to Netflix. Or even to buy an iPad.

For Netflix sure. I don't care. But when it comes to banking and you are forced to use between two OS or this means no access to your bank digitally, this is a massive problem and restriction to citizens' freedom. Everyone needs a bank to operate, and they need to maximize the options available to use them.

well no one to force you to do banking from smartphones

You can do manually like the old days, EXPLICTLY ALLOWING NON GOOGLE/APPLE to do banking in their own mobile phone meaning THERE ARE MILLIONS OF USERS that can fall victim to scammer+cracker

how cant you see all of that???? ITS JUST NOT ABOUT YOU

edit: please educate first, y'all need to know differences between mobile banking and internet banking

You can downvote me all you want, but I don't want to hear lecture from non-security compliant engineer about what to do about security

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#294

Post by yardstick »

colordrops wrote: post #195
1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This makes the point that the real battle we should be fighting is not for control of Android/iOS, but the ability to run other operating systems on phones." Sometimes owner control, cf. corporate control, can be had by sacrificing hardware functionality, i.e., features, closed source drivers. Choice between particular hardware feature(s) working and control over the hardware in general.

Yes but in the phone space the sacrifice is too much. You often times forgo the ability to even participate in many aspects of society, e.g. banking. It's not your typical "rough around the edges open source alternative", it's just not even a comparison.

Can’t you do banking on the web via your phone? Same as desktop users?

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#295

Post by matheusmoreira »

zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

> Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with.

We need to make that illegal. Classify it as discrimination. They should be obligated to treat any client that tries to connect the same as they would treat their own software. Anything else is illegal discrimination against users, a crime comparable to racial discrimination.

Anything short of this means they've won. Everything the word "hacker" ever stood for will be destroyed. Throw all FOSS into the trash. None of it matters anymore. What's the point of free software that we can't run? That can't actually do anything useful because it fails remote attestation? Completely useless.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#296

Post by vbezhenar »

yardstick wrote: post #287
vbezhenar wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ability to run other operating systems on phones > building those alternatives is basically impossible For smart people it is not impossible. Just few years ago, few folks wrote complicated drivers for completely closed hardware, and I'm talking about M1 Macbook. Google Pixel, on the other hand, was pretty open until very recently. I might be wrong about specifics, but I'm pretty sure that most of software was open…

I’m fairly sure the modem firmware on the Pixels was never open. There’s some hardware that will never have open firmware to it. Especially when that firmware deals with regulated airwaves like cell signals.

My laptop has plenty of chips with closed firmware. They matter not. Open hardware is a noble goal, but open software is enough. Firmware is part of hardware block, so having open operating system, which sends blobs into some devices for initialisation is perfectly acceptable compromise.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#297

Post by wiredpancake »

dbg31415 wrote: post #213

Some things shouldn't be left to amateurs to repair. Just because you "own" the hardware doesn't mean you're equipped to fix it safely or securely. Modern devices are tightly integrated systems -- tinkering with them can make them less reliable, less secure, and sometimes outright dangerous. Manufacturers lock down certain layers not just out of greed, but because risk management protects both users and the people ar…

We are talking about software.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#298

Post by Biganon »

glitchc wrote: post #60

Why not launch a new startup focused on building an open smartphone? This is HN after all, with the right pitch someone will throw money at it.

Because only a bunch of nerds would use it, your bank wouldn't support running its shitty app on it, and it's back to square 1.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#299

Post by matheusmoreira »

josephg wrote: post #260
zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

My parents are getting old and they aren't tech savvy. The missing piece here is that I want my parents to have a computer they can safely do their banking on, without leaving them vulnerable to scams and viruses and the like. I like that they have iphones. Doing internet banking on their phone is safer than doing it on their desktop computer. Why is that? The reason is that the desktop PC security model is deeply fl…

> think of the elderly

This stuff is not just for the elderly and computer illiterate. It's for you as well. You think they're going to stop?

You're giving up freedom for safety. You will have neither.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#300

Post by fr4nkr »

nuker wrote: post #281
quaintdev wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not give people the freedom to choose what they want

It will be exploited. Key word above - not tech savvy. The only reason we have convenient banking, gov and streaming apps today is because of guaranteed and enforced mobile security by big boys Apple and Google. (Google being Ad company is another matter, not relevant here).

No, we have convenient online services in spite of the endless security theater that permeates consumer tech. All it's done is gradually increase maintenance burden and technical complexity until useful features are slowly stripped out to create a more "streamlined" experience. The mobile app for my credit union has become so shitty that I'm not even sure if losing access to it is a deal-breaker for rooting my phone - I already prefer to do my online banking and shopping on my laptop.

There is no "just works" technical solution for a problem caused mainly by naivete and gullibility. Governments and the private sector know this, of course; as others have said, the real purpose is to control users, not to protect them.

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