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Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

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Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#561

Post by austinjp »

brutusborn wrote: post #339
austinjp wrote: post #327

The UK media (not just the BBC) continue to profess "amazement" at the speed and efficiency of the transitioning from a dead monarch to a living one. There's been much speaking in awed tones at the pace of the various proclamations, committee meetings, document signings, etc, as if this pace tells us why we should be impressed. Personally I've found it borderline sickening. If there was a curtain that could have slip…

What is sickening about a smooth transition of power? The main thing you seem to criticise is the ritual itself, which to me seems pretty normal, albeit grandiose.

The normalisation of the rituals is part of the problem.

The public proclamations of the accession of Charles to King have included representatives of the state, military, police, and church. They have been made in public spaces. The mildest of protestations have resulted in arrests (albeit very few, and by seemingly confused police officers).

For me, the issues here are around obeisance and imposition. Apparently it's fine and "normal" for some elite [1] class of people to march into public spaces and make declarations that cannot be challenged.

The ornate outfits and ceremony are there to indicate a few things, the most obvious being that you are not one of them. In the strange post-modern Western world, pompous ceremonies come across as quaint and fun, another one of those bizarre things that the upper classes apparently get up to, silly them, aren't they funny hahaha. But it's not quaint, it's a public declaration that a tiny number of the ultra-priveleged still call the shots.

Bizarrely it seems that we lap it up. The message is almost subliminal now: you're there and we're here, and that's the way it's going to stay.

[1] I know the word elite is a dog-whistle but have you seen these dudes?? A more florid flaunting of elitism is hard to imagine.

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#562

Post by sofixa »

deskamess wrote: post #124
bawolff wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? the US is a weird, barely functioning, democracy. Why would anyone want to emulate it?

What makes it weird? Why is it barely functioning?

First past the post is inherently undemocratic. Combine with the facts that Senate representation is based on lines on a map and not population, and House of Representatives representation is based on population numbers from a century ago, there's blatant gerrymandering to abuse the first past the post. Did you also miss the former president attempting a coup, getting away with multiple crimes while in office due to political affiliation? Or how about the fact that your supreme court wields enormous power and is blatantly political, with life appointments.

There's a bunch of reasons why the US is considered a flawed democracy, with the score going down every year, in the Democracy Index.

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#563

Post by corney91 »

random_upvoter wrote: post #214

I've been a bit disconcerted at the level of unmitigated adulation that's been showered on the late queen by the media. I have nothing bad to say about Elizabeth II but I too do my job every day -- without a staff of hundreds to prepare my breakfast -- and I don't think I will be sanctified the day I keel over. It's all so serious and deeply conservative you'd think we are back in the 1950. In the 1970s Monty Python…

I'm not so sure about your last statement: what's considered "acceptable" is always changing so you might be right, but I think there's always been people out there trying to block things so I'm not convinced this is new behaviour.

> In 1979, Monty Python's Life of Brian was considered so controversial it was given an X certificate and banned from some British cinemas.

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-53441499

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#564

Post by eternalban »

austinjp wrote: post #327

The UK media (not just the BBC) continue to profess "amazement" at the speed and efficiency of the transitioning from a dead monarch to a living one. There's been much speaking in awed tones at the pace of the various proclamations, committee meetings, document signings, etc, as if this pace tells us why we should be impressed. Personally I've found it borderline sickening. If there was a curtain that could have slip…

> 24/7 by pretty much all media in the UK and in other countries.

UK is understandable. Why other countries, even supposedly "hostile" nations, constantly, year after year shove this British royal crap down our throat (and we barely ever hear about other so-called royal families but they do exist) is an interesting question. "People want it" is the usual excuse like advertising is the usual pretext/excuse for surveillance capitalism. And who are these "people" who are clamoring to know every tiny details of this not so noble family? The lumpen masses? The media usually doesn't give an F about what they "want", except on this topic. [They comprehensively saturate the information space, from highbrow journals all the way to tabloid sheets. There is no other topic like this.] Very interesting.

For years now I have trained my eyes to immediately look away from any headline that mentions a Brit royal family member. They are like the Kardashians. A completely 'who cares and why should I care' informational nuisance.

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#565

Post by sofixa »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #463
tialaramex wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA is the one where they give their elected figurehead pardon powers - like a King in the old times - and the previous one used them to insulate friends who very obviously did crimes. Then in fact he promises to do the same again only more so if given the chance, but his political allies protect him from prosecution anyway. Wow. I mean, I guess Cromwell was worse, but it's not exactly an enviable choice. The US…

> France's setup is better, but if there had been some way to not execute the King of France I think they'd be doing just fine with some guy in a fancy hat living in one of their palaces and somebody to represent France as an idea who isn't connected to a political executive. France deposed its last two kings and its last emperor without executing them so I think we can safely assume than no actually no one wants a k…

That would be a wrong assumption. After the Second Empire fell, a return to the Bourbon monarchy was considered the way forward. The problem was that the idiot next in line was too inflexible with regards to flag designs, so the Third Republic was set up with a largely ceremonial president with an extremely long term (7 years), with the hope that when that term is up, the idiot would have died, and the next in line would be the liberal Phillipe d'Orléans, compte de Paris. But by the time the term was up, the composition of parliament and the general attitude had changed, so the shaky, unstable, supposedly temporary Third Republic survived.

Henri, compte de Chambord (the inflexible idiot, proud descendant of a line of either inflexible or too flexible idiots), is thus considered as the French Washington - without him the Republic wouldn't have been possible.

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#566

Post by afarrell »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #332
afarrell wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is because humans have an irrational tendency towards sycophancy. This was true throughout both the Obama and Trump administrations and before them. Better to direct that impulse towards a dignified institution that does nothing but attract tourists and occasionally signal society’s values than towards something that tries to have efficient and lethal decision-making power.

Wait, is this satire? Surely we should resist our less productive qualities, like sycophancy. Not try to channel it to some "worthy cause".

Not satire. If you think you should resist your tendency towards sycophancy, then you are free to let that guide your own life.

Others will do otherwise.

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#567

Post by gambiting »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #283
samatman wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The clip of the dog doing a Nazi salute was on YouTube, so by your logic, as they are both art forms in poor taste, they should both be protected. Not what happened though.

The mindset is alien to me. The idea that a person should be locked up for making a joke, but a corporation should have the right to do whatever it likes. It doesn't even seem like it's ever in question just stated like a fact that the wealthy and powerful should have more rights. Perhaps that's the British psyche of meek subservience to the ruling class. The really funny thing is that poor pleb is branded a "fascist…

>>The idea that a person should be locked up for making a joke, but a corporation should have the right to do whatever it likes.

I don't think anyone has this kind of mindset - at least I certainly don't. Anyone should be arrested for joking with nazi salutes, no matter if they are rich or poor. Not sure why you think that corporations get away with it - is there any corporation out there that uploads "joke" nazi salutes to youtube and gets away with it? If you mean films specifically, then films get approval of the British Film Comission which judges anything submited based on artistic merit. We can disagree with its rulings, but it's not like a corporation has "the right to do whatever it likes" as you put it. Quite the opposite in fact.

>>The really funny thing is that poor pleb is branded a "fascist"

I don't find this funny at all, glorifying nazi imagery(and yes, "joke" nazi salutes achieve exactly that) is no laughing matter.

>>while the powerful people who came after him are considered brave and valiant freedom fighters for doing so

You mean....the police?

I think people here just don't get it - making Nazi salutes even as a joke is not acceptable in European societies. The horrors of WW2 are still too fresh and the pain too great to allow it - we have made these laws to make sure that nazis don't come back, and anything associated with them is banned. You might think "well what sort of harm does a single youtube video do, the guy was clearly joking". And yeah, it's obvious to you and me - but to some, that will be a "funny" thing to repeat. After all, they are only joking, they don't mean it really, it's fine, right? No, it's not, and unfortunately it has to be stomped out as early as possible. Again, I understand that this might sound alien especially to American readers, but I don't have anything else to say on that matter, other that it feels like the right thing to do, given the topic.

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#568

Post by austinjp »

ploppyploppy wrote: post #540
austinjp wrote: post #327

The UK media (not just the BBC) continue to profess "amazement" at the speed and efficiency of the transitioning from a dead monarch to a living one. There's been much speaking in awed tones at the pace of the various proclamations, committee meetings, document signings, etc, as if this pace tells us why we should be impressed. Personally I've found it borderline sickening. If there was a curtain that could have slip…

A very biased, dark and over-written take on the scenes & goings-on. These traditions are > 100 years old; what do you expect to happen? Get outside and spend some time in nature why don't you?

Thanks for the advice :)

As for what I expect to happen, as I've said elsewhere here: a conversation, and not unquestioning deferential acceptance of centuries-old privilege.

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#569

Post by WastingMyTime89 »

sofixa wrote: post #565
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> France's setup is better, but if there had been some way to not execute the King of France I think they'd be doing just fine with some guy in a fancy hat living in one of their palaces and somebody to represent France as an idea who isn't connected to a political executive. France deposed its last two kings and its last emperor without executing them so I think we can safely assume than no actually no one wants a k…

That would be a wrong assumption. After the Second Empire fell, a return to the Bourbon monarchy was considered the way forward. The problem was that the idiot next in line was too inflexible with regards to flag designs, so the Third Republic was set up with a largely ceremonial president with an extremely long term (7 years), with the hope that when that term is up, the idiot would have died, and the next in line w…

> That would be a wrong assumption. After the Second Empire fell, a return to the Bourbon monarchy was considered the way forward. The problem was that the idiot next in line was too inflexible with regards to flag designs, so the Third Republic was set up with a largely ceremonial president with an extremely long term (7 years)

No, that’s only Tiers and the other idiots of the French right who had already dishonoured France during the the semaine sanglante and was only elected by the part of France which wasn’t occupied by Prussia. The left was republican but the commune had temporary weakened it. There was no way a return to monarchy would have hold. The population wasn’t really in favour of it which is why the third kept going.

Their disagreement amongst the right went much further than the flag anyway. No one agreed about who should rule and under which constitution.

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#570

Post by austinjp »

orange8 wrote: post #448
austinjp wrote: post #327

The UK media (not just the BBC) continue to profess "amazement" at the speed and efficiency of the transitioning from a dead monarch to a living one. There's been much speaking in awed tones at the pace of the various proclamations, committee meetings, document signings, etc, as if this pace tells us why we should be impressed. Personally I've found it borderline sickening. If there was a curtain that could have slip…

I believe it has always been that quick for hundreds of years. Where else would the phrase "the king is dead, long live the king" come from?

Well indeed. That phrase signifies that monarchy should be uninterruptible, which I'm suggesting deserves questioning.
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