Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin • Hacker News Board

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#561

Post by m3kw9 » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:30 PM UTC

oliwarner wrote: post #450

m3kw9 wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Casually suggesting that Apple should pull out from all authoritarian countries is both funny and naive

That is what I think, but that's not the point of my post. The part you're reading around is the people here defending Apple and Google's behaviour, because they're just doing what's right for their employees. Doing what's right for Apple and Google's employees is not setting up offices in front of Russia's loaded gun, which we've only known about for… hundreds of years . Apple and Google put their employees at risk.…

Im just saying you cannot just pull out and work remote in a country wide situation and with the scale of Apple. There will be much more effects, maybe I’m paranoid in that sense.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#562

Post by ipv6ipv4 » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

avianlyric wrote: post #298

heavyset_go wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With regards to CSAM, I think the same applies. After all the CSAM issue only exists because the US government has decided that invasive monitoring is the only way to counter CSAM. No it hasn't. There is no legislation that the government passed or enforces that says Apple must scan people's private data on their devices for CSAM. Apple decided to do that all on their own.

The specific approach isn't in law. But the requirement to scan photos stored in the cloud is. On this specific point I think reasonable to believe that Apple want to E2E iCloud photos, and their stated approach to CSAM is how they'll achieve E2E iCloud photos, while remaining compliant with the requirement to scan for CSAM they might be hosting. Now there's a very strong argument to be made that Apple have made an a…

> But the requirement to scan photos stored in the cloud is.

This is categorically false. The law is very clear. Known CSAM must be reported. There is no obligation to search for it. The law explicitly exempts service providers from having to search for anything in a paragraph aptly named “protection of privacy”.

The text of the law: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2258A

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#563

Post by xyzzyz » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

skinkestek wrote: post #544

saiya-jin wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fire your Russian employees. More like move them to a better place if they prefer this to simply terminating the contract. Benefits are numerous - retain already-hired quality personnel, have a good PR campaign about being moral and holy and doing the extra mile with bureaucracy (which would be true), grow some extra hairy balls overnight. Or something similar.

Good points. Russia unlike certain others probably won't torture their loved ones because of this.

Of course, if they ever go back to Russia, they risk prosecution. Rather rough deal.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#564

Post by chupasaurus » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:35 PM UTC

lotusmars wrote: post #505

chupasaurus wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are lawyers hired by Apple and Google, not employees.

They still looked unprepared. The inquirer asked basic questions like "who controls App Store" or "what is the relationship between local subsidiary and Apple Inc." They stumbled and mumbled looking lost. They looked like they didn't have clear defense line or strategy although the attack on Apple was absolutely on cards for years. I hope I'm wrong judging by a short video but it's a bad look for Apple. It's possible…

Google and Apple had been asked by the Council to visit the hearing 2 days in advance which is not enough to prepare for anything related to "the offense on the sovereignty".

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#565

Post by tablespoon » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:35 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #540

tablespoon wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The image of society given by your picture does not resemble real life. Facebook and I are not equal actors analogous to neighbors disputing over what gets put in their front yard. You're never going to have a society that equal. Do you all the sudden have the right to put signs up at my house because it's bigger or on a busier street than yours? Should you be able to put chapters in the books I write because no on…

The whole point is that this sign on yard analogy is just not relevant to real world circumstance. Facebook and Twitter have outsized control over how I socialize with others. If every major cell phone provider chose to stop delivering any text with that article attached to it, would that be acceptable? What if they decided to unilaterally stop delivering any texts from the Trump campaign? Clearly there is a line to…

> The whole point is that this sign on yard analogy is just not relevant to real world circumstance. Facebook and Twitter have outsized control over how I socialize with others.

So? They only have that kind of power over you because you chose to give it to them.

If I have cool friends, and you decided to organize your social life around visiting my house to see them, it's not my problem if you don't have a place to socialize if I sour on you and exclude you.

> Clearly there is a line to be drawn, and falling back on "it's their private property and thus their right to filter it however they want" is not sufficient in the 21st century, in the age of platform companies and extreme corporate consolidation.

My perspective is compelled speech or compelled cooperation with political speech is just as bad as censorship, so if that's your solution, you have to find a different one.

> Garbage? It was new, previously unreported information.

If the NY Post has a picture of Biden shitting on the toilet, that would also be "new, previously unreported information." It would also be garbage. Those categories aren't mutually exclusive.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#566

Post by lostmsu » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #127

throw_m239339 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pull out of the countries then. Then why Apple hasn't pulled out of China? Like 2 decades ago? China was always a brutal dictatorship. Why would they pull out of anything? These company profit from bloody dictatorships, like the rest of the western economy. But somehow when it's about Russia it's a problem? The hypocrisy in the west must stop. The west and it's industry never stood for freedom abroad since it decid…

I posted a sibling comment to your about Russia and the general point. I'll try not to repeat myself but China is very close to my heart as my wife is Chinese and therefore so is half of my family. My wife's father's family were brutally oppressed by the Communists. To this day he gets upset, and I've seen him burst into tears when talking about what they did to some of his relatives in the 50s and 60s. This is the t…

Good anecdata. I am from Russia, and was personally oppressed (fortunately, only by restriction of freedoms) for the exact thing the app in question was trying to achieve (e.g. getting someone else win elections).

I'd rather Apple and Google pulled from Russia precisely because people there do not feel responsible for the acts of their government, which makes them (and now also Google and Apple) complicit.

In my opinion the people in question are simply choosing the bad strategy in prisoner's dilemma.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#567

Post by fsociety » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

yanderekko wrote: post #542

tablespoon wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where does the US MSM and social media refusing to cover anything about Hunter Biden put us? I'm not a huge fan of Joe Biden (as you can probably infer from my comments here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28550896 ), but the Hunter Biden stuff was a shameless distraction with no real substance. So to answer your question: if the US MSM and social media was required to run smears of a sitting president against…

>but the Hunter Biden stuff was a shameless distraction with no real substance. Uh, that's really not a strong affirmative justification for taking active measures to stop people from using your platform to share a story. And of course the real problem is not simply that the story was suppressed, but that we all know that media platforms do not in fact have a blanket policy against reporting on "shameless distraction…

They do have policies against spreading misinformation.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#568

Post by 8note » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:50 PM UTC

blacktriangle wrote: post #499

tablespoon wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Define "authoritarian regime" A simple rule of thumb definition (that could probably use some refinement) is regimes that are either explicitly anti-democratic or a sham democracy. Russia certainly falls into the latter category, as this very story demonstrates. In most cases, it's not that hard.

Where does the US MSM and social media refusing to cover anything about Hunter Biden put us?

US MSM did cover hunter Biden extensively. Fox and other right wing propaganda stations are still a part of the MSM.

Mind you, every other station covered it heavily too. The sitting president was impeached over the hunter Biden story

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#569

Post by python273 » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:50 PM UTC

More context to why using apps, not websites or email:

Smart Voting website is hosted on Google App Engine (appspot.com). The Russian government had no ability to block it for long time without affecting other Google services, since ISPs could block mostly by IP and via DNS spoofing.

To block reliably by domain they would need to have DPI (deep packet inspection) hardware, and most ISPs had no DPI, since it's expensive. Even if they had it, they could only block by domain/ip, not by traffic signatures and reaction time was relatively slow.

Now they improved censorship infrastructure and basically building Great Firewall. As I understand government controlled DPIs are now installed on Internet exchange points. So it's easier to block specific domains and protocols. Recently they:

- were throttling Twitter (and every website with t.co substring, yeah)

- blocked some opposition websites hosted on Appspot

- DNS over HTTPS (DoH) servers used in the app (Google, Cloudflare, OpenDNS)

- Bunny CDN, used in the app

- docs.google.com, telegra.ph (voting list was published there)

- DHT and BitTorrent

- started blocking some VPN providers and attempted to block Wireguard protocol

I think some of blocks (e.g. torrent) were used to test capability. Now that they can slow down websites and block more accurately, they have more leverage over tech companies.

Apps have more ways to avoid blocking than websites and PWAs. E.g. by getting endpoints/data via updates, notifications, domain fronting. So the obvious next step was to attack app stores.

---

You could enter your email on the website, but some of the emails got leaked. Considering many people used personal email addresses, it was possible to combine it with other leaks/DBs to get more personal information. Police visited some people registered on the website. So I guess people trust less giving their email addresses now.

Re: Google, Apple remove Navalny app from stores as Russian elections begin

#570

Post by dillondoyle » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #367

kurokikaze wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's voting for the candidate most likely to win against the main party's candidates. The app's purpose is to concentrate protest voters on one candidate without spreading them over all of them.

Isn't there a lot of evidence that Russia's elections are rigged? Like turnout percentages have ridiculous percentages of ratios that end in 0 and 5 - as do growth in turnout.

Yes there is a lot of evidence. From blatent ballot stuffing to more tricks like changing names. This time they even shaved someones head to make them look like the candidate ;)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/06/three-near-ide...

A concerning development this year is they allow online voting? Which seems like the easiest way for them to flip just enough votes to win, without giving themselves 95% of the votes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/03/19...