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An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

appleprivacyletter.com

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Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#561
post #553
post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So this is just about China? When Apple started working in China, the prevailing western belief was that economic liberalization would cause political liberalization in China, so even though China was still relatively repressive, doing business there would help move things in a better direction. At the time, this was a very reasonable and widespread belief, which turned out to be wrong. Betting on other people and tu…

Naive is not something I would associate with Apple, but I guess they have seen it now. I guess they must be ready to pull off any time...Or is their CEO too busy, lecturing others on the righteous paths in other jurisdictions? "Apple's Good Intentions Often Stop at China's Borders" https://www.wired.com/story/apple-china-censorship-apps-flag...

> Naive is not something I would associate with Apple, but I guess they have seen it now.

It wasn’t just Apple who was naïve, it was the entirety of US and European foreign policy too. Do you want to claim that the west didn’t expect political liberalization in China.

That article doesn’t change anything. Apple didn’t go into China thinking they were helping to strengthen an authoritarian regime. They went in thinking they were helping to liberalize it.

We all, Apple included, got played.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#562
post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You argue the applications of the technology further down the line. Remind them how facebook's safety features turned into tools for censorship.

Can you think of a time when that kind of argument has ever worked? I remind you that people made that argument about Facebook and it didn’t.

Raising awareness won't stop any of this. It's inevitable. We have the technological capacity and institutional interest required to implement it, it will be done, and it will be endemic.

Raising awareness is about letting people know so that they might take the necessary precautions if they consider themselves to be at risk of its abuse, and degrades their faith in the institutions that support it.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#563
post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes so far. Once the mechanism is in place it will be rolled out. I'm in the UK and we have a fairly nasty set of state legislation on censorship already and an increasingly authoritarian government so this is a big worry.

Absolutely agree, this will no doubt reach Apple devices worldwide, just a matter of time. But there is still time for Apple to halt these changes.

Apple will try again with something that's wrapped up to be more palatable to consumers. A change of heart in the next 90 days does not mean that Apple is a good actor.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#564
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laptop | Desktop: https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/overview/cp/linuxsystem... Router: https://www.turris.com/en/omnia/overview/ Media Center: https://osmc.tv/vero/ Cloud (Use TrueNAS Scale): https://www.truenas.com/systems-overview/ Phone: https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/ Watch: https://pine64.com/product/pinetime-smartwatch-sealed/ Smart Thermostat: https://hestiapi.com/product/hestiapi-touch-one-free-shippin..…

The dell and lenovo laptops are nowhere the quality of the apple machines, sadly. I have a maxed out xps and it is a downgrade in all respects but privacy. :/

I saw your blogpost [1] mentioning how the iPhone 12 is likely your last. Have you given any thought since then to what your next smartphone would be? Or if you still use smartphone at all?

[1]https://sneak.berlin/20210202/macos-11.2-network-privacy/

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#565
post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your position is to simply deny that child porn or predation is a serious problem. I outlined that this was one of the sides in the debate - I.e. you take position 2, and have no empathy for position 1. The problem is that this is a political trap. You can’t win position 2 by painting technologists as uncaring or dismissive. ‘Think of the children’ works for a reason.

> ‘Think of the children’ works for a reason. "Think of the children" will always work, no matter what the context is, no matter what the stats are, and no matter what we do. That does not mean that we should not care about the children, and it does not mean that we shouldn't care about blocking CSAM. We should care about these issues purely because we care about protecting children. If there are ways for us to reduc…

> So in the real world we know that the majority of child abuse comes from people that children already know.

Historically this has been regarded as true, but according to the FBI, online predation is a growing problem.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/child-predators

> Your mistake here is assuming that anything that technologists can build will ever change those people's minds or make them ease up on calls to ban encryption. It won't.

What makes you think I think that? You have misrepresented me here (effectively straw-manning), but I will assume an honest mistake.

You are right that there are people who will always seek to ban or undermine encryption no matter what, and who use ‘think of the children’ as an excuse regardless of the actual threat. ‘Those people’ as you put it, by definition will never have their minds changed by technologists. Indeed there is no point in technologists trying to do that.

However I don’t think that group includes Apple, nor does it include most of Apples customers. Apple’s customers do include many people who are worried about sexual predators reaching their children via their phones though. These people are not ideologues or anti-encryption fanatics.

Arguing that concerns about children are overblown or being exploited for nefarious means may be ‘true’, but it does nothing to provide an alternative that Apple could use, not does it do anything to assuage the legitimate fears of Apple’s customers.

Perhaps you believe that there is no way to build a more privacy preserving solution than the one Apple has.

I would simply point out in that case, that the strategy of arguing against ‘think of the children’, has already lost, and commiserate with you.

I’m not convinced that there is no better solution. Betting against technologists to solve problems usually seems like a bad bet, but even if you don’t think it’s likely, it seems irrational not to hedge, because the outcome of solving the problem would have such a high upside.

It’s worth pointing out that Public Key cryptography is a solution to a problem that at one time seemed insoluble to many.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#566
post #416

US Government: We suspect the person in this photo of committing a crime. Here is your subpoena, Apple. You are directed to scan all iPhone and iCloud storage for any pictures matching this NeuralHash and report to us where you find them. Chinese Government: Here is the NeuralHash for Tienanmen square. Delete all photos you find matching this or we will bar you from China. Apple has at this point already admitted thi…

As far as I can see: 1. This is a serious attempt to build a privacy preserving solution to child pornography. 2. The complaints are all slippery slope arguments that governments will force Apple to abuse the mechanism. These are clearly real concerns and even Tim Cook admits that if you build a back door, bad people will use it. However: Child pornography and the related abuse is widely thought of as a massive probl…

> Can anyone propose anything better

Widespread education about how child abuse usually works in the real world outside of movies, public examination of what tools we have available and whether they're being used effectively, very public stats about how prevalent the problem is and what direction it's moving in.

Better media that more accurately reflects how these problems play out for real people and that doesn't use them as a cheap gimmick to pray on people's fears to raise narrative stakes.

Better education about the benefits of encryption and the risks of abuse, better education about how back doors play out in the real world and how they are abused both by governments and by individual abusers. Better education about the fail-rate of these systems.

> Child pornography and the related abuse is widely thought of as a massive problem, that is facilitated by encrypted communication and digital photography.

Most people don't have a basis for this instinct, they believe it because they were taught it, because it's what the movies tell them, because it fits their cultural perception of technology, because it's what the CIA and FBI tell them. Unless they're basing their fear on something other than emotion and instinct, there is no technical or political solution that will reduce their fear. It's all useless. Only education and cultural shifts will make them less afraid.

If you survey the US, over 50% of adults will tell you that crime today is at the same level or worse than it was in 1950s, an absurd position that has no basis in reality. So what, should we form a police state? At some point, caring about the real problems we have in the real world means learning to tell people that being scared of technology is not a good enough justification on its own to ban it.

Nothing else will work. People's irrational fears by and large will not be alleviated by any technical solutions. They won't even be alleviated by what Apple is doing, parents who have an irrational fear of privacy are not going to have that fear lessened because Apple introduced this scanning feature. They will still be afraid.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#567
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Phone: Pixel with GrapheneOS or CalyxOS I've seen this recommendation very often lately. As I am shopping for a new phone: Why is it that hardware directly from Google is recommended for putting another OS onto it (I've seen recommendations for LineageOS as well). What makes it better than any stock phone supported by LineageOS?

Consistency. All the Google hardware forever has allowed easy factory unlocking without a fuss, easy ways to restore to standard OS images without jumping through hoops, and are widely available. Plus they allow re-locking the booloader and the phone equivalent of enrolling your own custom secure boot keys. They also provide firmware updates for a long time so you can get platform/hardware patches too. CalyxOS does p…

Devices supported by the Sony Open Device Program shoukd be also a good target:

https://developer.sony.com/develop/open-devices/

There are projects such as Sailfish OS that make use of this to run on originally Android hardware.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#568
post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you think of a time when that kind of argument has ever worked? I remind you that people made that argument about Facebook and it didn’t.

Raising awareness won't stop any of this. It's inevitable. We have the technological capacity and institutional interest required to implement it, it will be done, and it will be endemic. Raising awareness is about letting people know so that they might take the necessary precautions if they consider themselves to be at risk of its abuse, and degrades their faith in the institutions that support it.

It doesn’t matter whether they are aware. They can’t take precautions. There are no technical solutions that people can use, and technologists seem to be uninterested in working on them. Apple’s solution is the best on offer. Raising awareness about Facebook’s problems hasn’t harmed Facebook.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#569
post #416

US Government: We suspect the person in this photo of committing a crime. Here is your subpoena, Apple. You are directed to scan all iPhone and iCloud storage for any pictures matching this NeuralHash and report to us where you find them. Chinese Government: Here is the NeuralHash for Tienanmen square. Delete all photos you find matching this or we will bar you from China. Apple has at this point already admitted thi…

As far as I can see: 1. This is a serious attempt to build a privacy preserving solution to child pornography. 2. The complaints are all slippery slope arguments that governments will force Apple to abuse the mechanism. These are clearly real concerns and even Tim Cook admits that if you build a back door, bad people will use it. However: Child pornography and the related abuse is widely thought of as a massive probl…

There is no end to the loss of privacy in the name of safety if your bogeyman is increasingly sophisticated actors.

The more sophisticated child molesters out there will find out about what Apple is doing and quickly avoid it. Isn’t that what the FBI is complaining about, that they have grown increasingly sophisticated?

The more sophisticated privacy adherents will also avoid Apple and resort to end to encryption and offline tools.

What is the actual outcome? You won’t get more arrests of child molesters. Instead, you get a security apparatus that can be weaponized against the masses. Furthermore, you will have the FBI complaining that child molesters are increasingly out of their reach and demanding greater powers. They will then try to mandate child porn detectors built into every phone.

This creep has been occurring for years. Go read the Snowden disclosures.

First your cell phone companies worked with the government for mass harvesting of data. No need for any suspicion because they promise not to look unless there is one. That wasn’t enough because the data was encrypted.

Second they had the companies holding the data snoop in on data that was shared. That wasn’t enough.

Third they had the companies holding the data snoop in on data EVEN when it wasn’t shared, just when it was uploaded to them. Not enough for them!

Now they will have it done on device prior to uploading. Does this mean that if it fails to upload, it gets scanned anyway. Why yes!

Next they will have it done on device even if it never is held by the company and never shared and never even intended to be uploaded.

The obvious goal is that the government has access to ALL data in the name of safety. No need for warrants. Don’t worry about it. They won’t look unless there was any suspicion. Opps never mind that, we will just have tools look.

There is no end to the loss of privacy in the name of safety if your bogeyman is increasingly sophisticated actors.

Why isn’t this obvious to everyone?

Anyone old enough to remember the Clipper chips?

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On phones: I'm considering a Pixel device with https://calyxos.org/ The main limitations will be the featureset of MicroG (no ~maps~/wearOS/auto). Possible issues with important apps like those for banking. On cloud: Synology Diskstation is amazing. Only use it through a local VPN though. edit: maps work (see reply)

Are the only phone options iOS or Android? I’m also considering leaving my iPhone behind because of this privacy violation but I’m definitely not moving to Google. That seems like two steps back.

Sailfish OS (built on Maemo/MeGo legacy, for those who remember those) is what I have been using for years (and this is typed from).

Also there are a lot of Linux distros targeting the PinePhone maturing by the day.

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