My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown • Hacker News Board

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#561

Post by denton-scratch » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 6:34 PM UTC

eurasiantiger wrote: post #52

simiones wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you tell a real Buddhist teacher from a fake one? What if you are interested in secular meditation and do not believe Buddhism or other religions are truthful?

Buddhism is not a religion per se. I’m sure there are cults around it, but as Dalai Lama put it: if science shows Buddhism to be wrong, then Buddhism must change. Good luck finding that sentiment in any actual religion. If you require more proof, make it a priority to seek understanding of ”Buddha-nature”.

The Dalai Lama was regurgitating The Buddha.

"Do not accept my words simply because I have said them; test them yourself, to see if they are true."

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#562

Post by journey_16162 » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 6:35 PM UTC

cyberpunk wrote: post #63

rolleiflex wrote: post #12

Since this is a long article, here’s a summary for fellow readers — it’s mostly about the negative side effects of meditation that the author believes is under-documented or under-reported due to the ‘hype’ of meditation as the 21st century cure-all. He talks about dissociative experiences (which is well documented in medical research), it being a pseudo-religion, and lastly, his belief that the extended use of medit…

These sorts of things have been dealt with for centuries by Buddhists, it’s a fairly common effect when you start with Zazen. This is why taking one part of the practice and abandoning the rest (most specifically, an experienced teacher) isn’t a great idea for everyone. Most of the time all you need to hear is “just let whatever comes up during Zazen go, and return to the moment” but alas, if you don’t things can go…

It's definitely possible to do malpractice when you are it alone. I never had a teacher and I did get burned on misinterpretations. Though looking back, it doesn't seem to be a big deal, but it did cause me some suffering.

2 major mistakes for me was going too much in either direction (relaxation vs. force).

I had a phase where I wanted to relax too much, or just let it come or let it manifest, either by trying to chill so much as to become sleepy, or by just trying to see with the naked eye. In either case it was a thought loop trap.

And I had a phase were I was too obsessive and used a lot of force. Like I really wanted to concentrate too hard and that also screwed me up a bit.

In either of these cases I could make a statement that meditation screwed me up, but I persisted with it and I can say that after 4 years, the benefits were very well worth the effort.

Also a big mistake was skipping the instructions. I.e. instead of just counting the breath or following the breath, I jumped at the unassisted version. I think if I just sticked to the very simple instructions and tried less of inventing my own way or outsmarting what's in the book, I would not run into these issues.

Note that I'm talking about zazen too, while the article is about mindfulness, it's a bit different although I never tried mindfulness.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#563

Post by vs1574 » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 6:40 PM UTC

mensetmanus1861 wrote: post #121

rolleiflex wrote: post #12

Since this is a long article, here’s a summary for fellow readers — it’s mostly about the negative side effects of meditation that the author believes is under-documented or under-reported due to the ‘hype’ of meditation as the 21st century cure-all. He talks about dissociative experiences (which is well documented in medical research), it being a pseudo-religion, and lastly, his belief that the extended use of medit…

I did a 10 day meditation (vipassana) few years ago. I remember some fellow meditators (majority of the sessions are in a hall full of meditators) having emotionally intense experiences (someone would cry inconsolably, someone will shout for few moments suddenly). I personally per say did not experience any such external emotional outburst but definitely got better clarity and calmness towards daily routine life. The…

I just got back from a 10 day Vipassana course a week and a half ago. So this whole thread is timely.

I went with no expectations except wanting to give the technique an honest try. On Day 5 I experienced anxiety and a panic attack. Never had one before - ever. I didn't know what I was feeling. On Day 6 it got worse. On Day 7 I almost quit but after talking to the teacher and course manager decided to persist. On day 7 I cried thru all the meditation sessions. I also felt some incredible highs which many people compare those achieved thru drugs - which I've never used myself. On that day I experienced feelings of extreme compassion and gratitude. On Day 8, my anxiety and panic attack got worse. It culminated in me passing out in the meditation hall. I passed out briefly but at that point I decided I had had enough and asked to leave immediately.

I've spent the last week+ trying to recover and hoping I didn't do any permanent damage to myself. In the past week I have experienced much minor feelings of anxiety but have been able to deal with them. I believe I will be ok but this has been an illuminating experience. Before this, I too never ever thought that meditation and/or mindfulness could have any negative or adverse reactions. So this is all new. I just wanted to pass on my experience objectively.

The one thing I really would say is that I wish these courses did a much better job of screening/counseling folks before they embark on the course and also have a better plan for how to address those people who experience something like I did. In that moment, I wanted to know that I was ok and felt like I wasn't getting the answers I needed. All I was told was to continue to work thru it. I am not sure that is the best thing for everyone. My body clearly was telling me otherwise.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#564

Post by denton-scratch » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 6:44 PM UTC

eurasiantiger wrote: post #455

pmoriarty wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Unlike the Christian G-d, the Buddha does not judge, does not punish, does not forgive and has not died in tortures for your sins, this way enabling priests demand you feel guilty." The gods are not the same, but the faith seems very similar to me. What is the difference between a Pure Land Buddhist believing chanting the nenbutsu[1] ("I take refuge in the Buddha of Inconceivable Light!") in order to get in to ensur…

Did Buddha teach rebirth from life to life, or from moment to moment? Given the context of the Teaching, the latter seems a better fit.

Buddha didn't teach rebirth. He didn't teach any metaphysics at all. Karma and rebirth were simply the sea in which The Buddha and his followers were swimming.

Having said that, it's hard to make sense of a lot of Buddhist teaching without karma and rebirth.

In the tradition that I followed, they said that experience was momentary (like, atomic); and the moments were separated by 'gaps'. Realisation was to be found in these gaps. In a way, that is like dying after every moment.

This was a tradition that venerated Padmasambhava, the composer of the Tibetan Book of the Dead; which highlights the opportunities for realisation in the gap between two lives.

Interestingly, these gaps also contain extreme terror, which you experience without the stabilising influence of a body. The TBOTD describes these terrors in a lot of detail.

The Dream Yoga is another way of exploring these gaps.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#565

Post by philwelch » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 6:49 PM UTC

lhorie wrote: post #389

oasisbob wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if yoga is injuring you, your understanding of it is wrong That feels a lot like either victim blaming, or being fed a No True Scotsman truism and accepting it. One could say the same thing about staying within their skill level for any high-risk adventure sport. "If that advanced ski course is injuring you ...."

It's interesting that you brought up high risk sports. The context of that quote was related to people injuring themselves by being too aggressive on stuff they should know better (one example was a relatively advanced practitioner pulling a calf muscle on a downward dog of all things). That's an example of a type of injury where the person sets goals (e.g. stretching to some specific previously achieved limit) witho…

At that point it's just a truism. Most sports injuries, aside from the ones caused by physical contact with another player, are the result of some mistake in form that, in hindsight, could have been prevented.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#566

Post by denton-scratch » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 6:51 PM UTC

goodpoint wrote: post #264

pmoriarty wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Buddhism is not a religion per se." There are many types of Buddhism, and some types are definitely very religious. Take Pure Land Buddhism[1][2], for example, one of the most popular forms of Buddhism in Japan, believers of which essentially pray to the Buddha for salvation and hope to be reborn in a heavenly land. It has some interesting similarities to Christianity. Buddhism as it's actually practiced in parts of…

> There's been a concerted, conscious effort to desacralize Buddhism to make it more palatable to Westerners This is a big generalization without a clear definition of what is "sacred". > it's pretty clear that it's a religion. I understand what you mean but using the world "religion" creates a lot of generalizations.

It was explained to me that the following are indispensable parts of Buddhist practice:

- Devotion

- Loving kindness

- Morality

- Generosity

I'm not saying that these kinds of things define religion; but there are few systems of thought that include these things, that don't also include supernatural beings.

It's hard to argue that Buddhism isn't a religion. It's certainly possible to construct something that's derived from Buddhism that isn't religious; but I don't think that's Buddhism.

/me not religious, nor Buddhist (any more), and now much more contented.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#567

Post by denton-scratch » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 6:59 PM UTC

mapcars wrote: post #108

nabla9 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's overly idealized and wrong view. Meditation together with mental treatment often works really well but they are not direct substitutes. There are meditation therapies that mix the two. What meditation does to the mind is not completely separated from the mental health, but it's not on the same line either. Understanding the nature of your mind heals only minor neuroses, and sometimes with depression. You can b…

So how do you know what is mentally healthy? How do you know those meditation masters were mentally ill?

The root teacher of Jamgon Kongtrul The Great was a man called Patrul. Patrul was a notorious drunk, and was known to beat up his students. He was still a kind man, and a legendary teacher.

Having psychological flaws doesn't disqualify you from being a realised master and a great teacher.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#568

Post by _mhr_ » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 9:04 PM UTC

jl2718 wrote: post #486

Every time I read something like this, the author turns out to be a regular drug user. I don’t necessarily have anything against that, but, having been sober my entire life, and having experimented heavily with natural hallucination methods such as lucidity, I seriously doubt that this level of intensity is possible. Aside from actual near-death experience (been there), it is extremely hard to hold onto even mild sen…

What is "lucidity"? Do you mean lucid dreaming?

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#569

Post by crazydoggers » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 10:11 PM UTC

lazide wrote: post #397

crazydoggers wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I interpret the author’s difficulties and frustration as a byproduct of a particular misapprehension of Buddhist teachings in modern society. I interpret his difficulties as an experience of how the brain is an organ and has physiological responses we’re not often prepared for. Most people would agree that going on a retreat where you run 20 miles a day would have adverse consequences for your body. Yet the same ki…

The brain as an organ analogy doesn't also reflect the self-reflective, self-influencing, learning side of it well. A kidney doesn't remember the last time someone abused it and react reflexively when they see that person. It also doesn't tend to go into tight loops of racing thoughts about that person randomly either. If you treat it like it is a simple organ (x thing happens, give drug y), it can lead to some reall…

> The brain as an organ analogy doesn't also reflect the self-reflective, self-influencing, learning side of it well.

Except it’s not an analogy… it’s literally an organ.

Software happens to run on top of it… and when there are bugs in on, we call those functional diseases. But understand that the physical organ and system underlies all if it.

If your cpu or memory are broken.. no software or software fixes can fix that.

And I’m not suggesting that the complexity of the neural network isn’t important to mental health. It is. But it’s based in physical and chemical processes.

Your immune system for instance is a complex system with emergent properties. You could say it “understands” or is aware when the body is being attacked. But at each individual level, it’s a process of chemical physical reactions.

It’s fine to work at the level of the “self”, but if we assume it stands apart or is fundamentally different than the brain itself, that’s when we get into trouble.

Buddhist philosophy can encapsulate accumulated folk knowledge of how the mind works, which can be incredibly insightful. However there’s danger in assuming it explains everything.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#570

Post by lhorie » Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 11:58 PM UTC

denton-scratch wrote: post #547

lhorie wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The general theme I'm seeing in this thread is that vipassana is not for beginners, not a panacea, and not representative of buddhism/meditation/mindfulness as a whole. There are multiple people downthread comparing intensive vipassana retreats to diving head first into high impact sports. The problems that the OP experienced appear to be directly related to this dynamic (doing a 10 day retreat a mere two years into…

Vipassana is not like a week at a spa. No ten-day meditation retreat is for beginners. I had been meditating daily for ten years before I ever did a seven-day retreat. You certainly don't need a ten-day retreat. Even a one-day retreat is rather extreme, for a beginner. A two-hour session, starting with instruction, and ending with 30 minutes of practice, is a reasonable way to approach Vipassana as a beginner.

> Vipassana is not like a week at a spa.

Right, I was conflating two separate points there: one is definitely about lengthy extreme programs, but another is that some people mentioned that it's better to spend more time with other forms of meditation (e.g. samatha) to develop other aspects of the eightfold path first, before getting into vipassana.