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My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

danlawton.substack.com

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Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#171

Post by Nursie »

qwerty456127 wrote: post #163
Nursie wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you appear to be telling others that their lives and experiences have no value without mindfulness. You also seem to be telling us that the only way you feel your life experience has any value is through this thing also, that your own experience is hollow or even non-existent without it. That seems somewhat extreme. I would make the same comment to (for instance) someone telling us that they live every moment o…

"Being with Jesus" is a rather vague concept which. Different people may understand it differently. Often it even is primitivized to just attributing yourself to a church. What I am telling, however, is a simple difference between automatic functioning in semi-hypnotic state and living in awake state. Let's take it to the extreme: imagine you were given a choice to spend the rest of your life in deep sleep (the kind…

> "Being with Jesus" is a rather vague concept which. Different people may understand it differently.

Which is why I said if someone tells me that "they live every moment of their lives through Jesus, and that without his love life can have no meaning."

> What I am telling, however, is a simple difference between automatic functioning in semi-hypnotic state and living in awake state.

Do you not see how judgemental that appears, that unless people join in with your special thing they are effectively automata, asleep, may as well be dead?

I'm glad you have found benefit in your path through life, but I'm not sure one should assume that yours is the only valuable way to live, or indeed the only way to actually 'live'.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#172

Post by rofws »

Is it possible that the author suffering from undiagnosed depression?

I've been a regular meditator for a few years and one thing I've found is that the the initial stages, meditation enhances whatever you're feeling subconsciously. That is why some people have intense emotional experiences at the beginning.

Secondly, mindfulness is not a 10 minute scheduled practice. It has to be followed throughout the day. However, you need to gradually ease into it, starting with 10 mins.

It's like pouring milk into a glass. If you start gently, there won't be a splash. But if you turn your milk container upside down over the glass, there will be a big splash and possibly spilling.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#173

Post by cyberpunk »

spadros wrote: post #161
cyberpunk wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was an instructor in "Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction" -- sorry, this is not a real thing. He's been teaching things he clearly does not understand, and his mind was blown by this. When I say "a teacher would tell you to come back to the moment" it's not quite as simple as I make it sound, the key thing is who the advice is coming from (read: an actual zen teacher who has received transmission, not a charlatan…

I've practiced zen and Tibetan Buddhism for years. They both contain lots of "spiritual bullocks woo" at times, as does most forms of Buddhism I've encountered. You really need to filter out the good parts for yourself, I find. There are many paths to "meditation" or "mindfulness"; I disagree that those are necessarily separate traditions. This sounds like a "No true Scotsman" type fallacy.

This is really what led me to soto, I don’t buy into the ritual, the chanting (unless it’s at a sessin, and even then only for the bonding experience) and the codes and so on of a lot of the other sects. Soto to me is a very pure expression, I’m also not a big fan of the Sotoshu (my teacher calls them the “funeral directors association”) and the more established Soto schools like the SF Zen Center.

Soto, as I understand it, is all about just shikantaza. The rest is optional. I don’t shave my head and wear robes, I just sit.

It took me a while, but this shoe fits. I read Dogen and he seems to agree with this for the most part, but of course ymmv.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#174

Post by qwerty456127 »

mensetmanus1861 wrote: post #23
qwerty456127 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One should meditate always, also also during their sleep. let alone while doing chores, walking and talking. Formal sitting meditation is just a minor part.

this is taking the advice literally IMHO. Most of the time you end up being in a calm and attentive state of mind where you are focusing on the present.

Good for you. Most of the time I don't. Being particularly prone to daydreaming (or deep unconscious though productive hyperfocused flow state at best) and having attention problems is what got me interested with the subject in the first place.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#175

Post by cyberpunk »

Zababa wrote: post #167
cyberpunk wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, keep in mind this is a practice that as far as we know people have been practicing for at least 2600 years, I think doing things like a 5-10 day Vipassana retreat is not a risk free thing, but you really shouldn’t be doing those unless you are ready. I follow the Soto school of Zen Buddhism, my teacher would not allow me to go to Sessin (which is a multi day meditation retreat) until I had been practicing for l…

Reading about your experience makes me realize that the mindfulness industry is probably another case of trying to remove the human element to improve scalability, with terrible results.

Or profit heh. How much do you recon headspace is worth? ;)

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#176

Post by Zababa »

littlethrowaway wrote: post #64
eurasiantiger wrote: post #46

> And I didn’t have a history of any major trauma prior to the retreat Yeah, right. > in 2009 I started a fist fight in a French Quarter bar … I broke a window with my fist, misplaced my shirt, and guzzled about 16 bottles of Miller High Life … > That … represented a constant battle I had waged over the prior decade with anger and other negative emotions. I drank too much. I occasionally smashed printers that jammed.…

Heh, a very similar thing happened to me actually, and while I agree about the fist-fight comment, I honestly didn't have any childhood trauma. Came from a loving, pretty privileged family, but I still went off the rails with a 10 day silent retreat! It's extremely easy to dismiss people like this, but, have a care, there are real people on the other end of your dismissive comments.

I don't want to dismiss your personal experience, this is just a general comment. "a loving, pretty privileged family" is not uncompatible with "childhood trauma".

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#177

Post by lm28469 »

jkhdigital wrote: post #106
lm28469 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How's that different from a "good" trip that make you believe you're in direct contact with god or even god himself though ? It goes both ways, you can't say the "good" experience is the truth and the "bad" experience is false. They're both the same thing and are just a mirror of your internal state, your job is to analyse them and decide what value you want to put on them. There is no "objectively" good or bad I thi…

Yes, much better to just casually drop 100 mcg on a Wednesday night in your friend’s basement at age 16 like I did, no preconceptions… (To be fair, some of my friends still cite that night as a distinctly positive life-altering experience)

I'm not saying people should casually use psychedelics without any knowledge of them, especially not at 16 and especially not in a basement. I researched the safety of it and the general effects (during/after the trip) to make sure I'd be physically able to go through it. Once I learned there was virtually no risks for the dose I "knew" I was in a good mental state to have the experience.

It has to be something you want to try (not something your friends semi forced you to join), you have to be aware it can be unpleasant, and you have to do it in a safe place (both mentally and physically), given that not much can go seriously wrong.

My first time was 200ug of lsd in the middle of a desert at night by myself, I had the idea after reading 1/4th of a book from Alan Watts, the way he talked about psychedelics made me curious and I didn't want to be too influenced by his experiences/descriptions which made me decide to stop reading and try it out.

It was my best trip, I gave up and replicating the experience after 4 or 5 times (over 3 or 4 years) and I stopped thinking about psychedelics since then.

Since then I learned two things:

- I'm much prefer tripping alone than with people, especially if the people I trip with aren't very long term/close friends I 200% trust on everything.

- Tripping inside isn't particularly enjoyable, I can't imagine tripping in a basement. I vividly remember feeling claustrophobic during my first trip, and that was in the middle of a desert probably 50km away from any man made structure

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#178

Post by hashkb »

pmoriarty wrote: post #141
warent wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My psychologist taught me that fear, anxiety, etc. destructive emotions are surface events, bubbling up from somewhere deeper. Mindfulness can be used as a resource for us to be with that fear; in the words of Thich Nhat Hanh "those painful emotions are like a child crying out. A child needs love and attention. Hold them with love, be with them." Once we can be with it, then we can start to follow it down to its root…

"I couldn't help but think about people having access to too many psychedelics. For a while, tripping can give you the most profound experiences ever. But after a while, it sort of becomes mondane, and this is when the bad trip probability suddenly skyrockets." I'm not sure about that. Psychedelics can bring to the surface all sorts of unconscious traumas, repressed memories, and/or issues people have trouble dealing…

Trust the trajectory.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#179

Post by m12k »

Nursie wrote: post #98
m12k wrote: post #93

A lot of people come into meditation/mindfulness with this preconceived notion that you sit down, close your eyes, focus on your breathing, and find your inner bliss. In my experience, nothing could be further from the truth. You sit down, close your eyes, focus on your breathing, and come face to face with the tornado of thoughts and emotions that is raging inside you. It's like running htop on your brain to find th…

> Done wrong, it can be gambling with your sanity I think the point of the article is that it's not clear what 'wrong' is, and it's certainly not made clear that there are potential serious negative mental health consequences.

Absolutely, I think it's important to not victim-blame or fall into that "just do it correctly and you'll be fine" trope that the author of the post describes. If you want to try meditation, always ease into it with shorts sessions, listen to your body and take note how you react to it along the way, and do not continue (or at least downscale it) if you find that your mind has a tendency to dissociate or otherwise freak out from it. And frankly, those 10 day silent retreats scare me - as someone who does short sessions once or twice a week, I probably feel the same way about them as someone who microdoses would feel about munching several fistfuls of shrooms.

I think part of the problem here is also the mysticism that this is steeped in. Hallucination, out-of-body-experiences, dissociation - none of these are ok, or signs that you're "transcending" or any bullshit like that. The "end goal" here isn't to dissolve your brain and merge it with the universe - in fact there is no end goal, just like there is no end goal for going to the gym (and it's absolutely possible to over-train there too, cf. rhabdomyolysis).

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown

#180

Post by pmoriarty »

eurasiantiger wrote: post #52
simiones wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you tell a real Buddhist teacher from a fake one? What if you are interested in secular meditation and do not believe Buddhism or other religions are truthful?

Buddhism is not a religion per se. I’m sure there are cults around it, but as Dalai Lama put it: if science shows Buddhism to be wrong, then Buddhism must change. Good luck finding that sentiment in any actual religion. If you require more proof, make it a priority to seek understanding of ”Buddha-nature”.

"Buddhism is not a religion per se."

There are many types of Buddhism, and some types are definitely very religious.

Take Pure Land Buddhism[1][2], for example, one of the most popular forms of Buddhism in Japan, believers of which essentially pray to the Buddha for salvation and hope to be reborn in a heavenly land. It has some interesting similarities to Christianity.

Buddhism as it's actually practiced in parts of Asia has many magical, "superstitious" components, like believing that a red string connected to a statue of the Buddha can transfer magical power from the Buddha to what the string is tied to. Believers pray to Buddha all the time for protection, luck, or even wealth. Some Buddhists believe in magical effects from tattoos made by Buddhist monks or that a Buddhist funeral would bring an auspicious rebirth.

Speaking of rebirth, the belief in reincarnation (which is central to most forms of Buddhism) is certainly religious in nature. Same with the belief in karma.

Also, one reason that Buddhism has been so successful around the world is that it can co-exist with and even absorb local religions to such an extent that many people who consider themselves Buddhists still believe in all sorts of gods, demons, or spirits, and for them Buddhism is not seperable from such beliefs.

It's only certain types of Buddhism in certain contexts which have been desacralized.

"as Dalai Lama put it: if science shows Buddhism to be wrong, then Buddhism must change"

He might have said it but I'm skeptical as to just how much change he'd be willing to subject his version of Buddhism to.

Anyway, the Dali Lama is a representative of just one form of Buddhism: Tibetan Buddhism, which is far from representative of Buddhism as a whole, and one that's pretty far from being secular compared to, say, Zen or Chan.

Even when focusing on just the more secular forms of Buddhism, at what point does veneration of the Buddha become worship? Is faith in the effectiveness of the Eightfold Path, the Buddha, and the Sangha all that different from Christian faith in God or in the effectiveness of works, faith, or grace (depending on one's denomination) in being saved?

There's been a concerted, conscious effort to desacralize Buddhism to make it more palatable to Westerners, but if you look at how Buddhism is actually practiced in the places where it came from before it got to the West it's pretty clear that it's a religion.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_Land_Buddhism

[2] - https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/japanese-pure-land/

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