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De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

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Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#561

Post by baybal2 »

briandear wrote: post #220
bjourne wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been on a few demos that turned violent. Among them the famous one when George Bush decided to pay a visit. In all cases , the organizers wanted to cooperate with the police. They knew who were in the "autonomous bloc" (troublemakers) and would have gladly helped the police zone in on them. In all cases the police didn't care and charged peaceful and violent demonstrators alike. I find it very odd that the polic…

> I find it very odd that the police still cannot after all these years and with all development in surveillance tech distinguish between peaceful demonstrators and rioters. One could almost believe that they have no interest in making that distinction. I have been in the middle of protests when I worked for Reuters and the difference between peaceful and violent is very tiny. I was in the no-man’s land between the K…

> In almost every large-scale protest that has left and extreme left wing elements, looting, fires, and violence is a foregone conclusion. It’s historical record.

Well, because one is made by enemies, vs friends of the power? One expects retaliations, and prepares to counterattack, and another don't because they don't even know why they should?

Every time when the revolution happens, and the power is toppled, its topped by a greater power, which means one with bigger guns, and heavier fists.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#562

Post by smcl »

lazyjones wrote: post #497
bjourne wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been on a few demos that turned violent. Among them the famous one when George Bush decided to pay a visit. In all cases , the organizers wanted to cooperate with the police. They knew who were in the "autonomous bloc" (troublemakers) and would have gladly helped the police zone in on them. In all cases the police didn't care and charged peaceful and violent demonstrators alike. I find it very odd that the polic…

> In all cases the police didn't care and charged peaceful and violent demonstrators alike. FWIW, German police regularly used undercover, black-clad, violent agents as a pretext for breaking up peaceful protests. It's probably an established tactic. But the situation in the USA looks very different (from here), violent protesters appear to be a small minority of the problematic people, most of which are just crimina…

This is something that really concerns me, because it's such an incredibly effective way to undermine any sort of demonstration. Are there any effective countermeasures to agent provocateurs that anyone knows of?

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#563

Post by nights192 »

scarmig wrote: post #187
lsh123 wrote: post #121

Could we please stop calling “protesters” all the people looting jewelry stores, Target, Nike, etc? These are not protesters, these are looters. Police should use any means at their disposal to protect lives and property from looters and rioters.

By the same token, can we please stop calling "police" all the people bashing in heads, punching journalists, planting evidence, instigating violence? They are not police, they are violent thugs. Protesters should use any means at their disposal to protect their own lives from violent thugs.

But they literally are police--that's the difference between these two arguments. Police can be held to account through voting and policy shifts, individuals cannot without community enforcement.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#564

Post by hef19898 »

RhysU wrote: post #558
bjourne wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have been in the middle of protests when I worked for Reuters and the difference between peaceful and violent is very tiny. Can you spot the difference between an African and European swallow? I bet you can't. But a professional bird watcher could tell them apart in a second. Same thing with protestors. When I was active I could easily tell the difference between someone potentially violent and someone peaceful.…

> When I was active I could easily tell the difference between someone potentially violent and someone peaceful. Woman with a stroller - probably peaceful. Person in all black with a large backpack - potentially violent. Wait for it... > The simple solution to this problem is for the police to target the troublemakers and to let the peaceful protestors be. You are suggesting that the police should profile individuals…

I think you are purposefully misreading the comment. There are ways to differentiate, mom with kid, old man vs. young guy in black clothes with a backpack.

I think I know what you want to imply, but did you note the complete absence of race or colour in OPs comment? And alos the completely different circumstances, crowd control vs. standard law enforcement?

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#565

Post by Joeri »

vertex-four wrote: post #450
stcredzero wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they really weren't - or at least not in any way that might lead to actionable results Can you substantiate that, or is it just your opinion? You can justify the imposition of your opinion on everyone? (Through violent intimidation?) like building systems that do not give cops the power to murder people without accountability This has happened, incrementally. Can you design a system, ground-up that will work as w…

> This has happened, incrementally. Do you have statistics that show that? Are more cops charged and imprisoned after murdering unarmed people every year, or does the number of unarmed murdered people go down, at all? People who die mysteriously in custody?

“Fatal police shootings of unarmed people have significantly declined, experts say”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/fatal-police-s...

However, the overall trend in police killings is flat.

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/nationaltrends

Interestingly:

“White Police Officers Are Not More Likely To Shoot Minority Suspects”

https://www.npr.org/2019/07/26/745731839/new-study-says-whit...

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#566

Post by throwaway2048 »

sdkjfhskjfh wrote: post #282
ineedasername wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hardly. The civil rights movement is an excellent example of civil opposition done peacefully and effectively. It helped that there were many strong leaders in that movement across the country. Right now the energy is chaotic and undirected, without a strong voice of leadership to act as both the vanguard of the protests as well as the negotiators of change.

The civil rights movement had a substantial amount of violence and change only started to happen because there was a very serious threat of it escalating. Purely peaceful protesting has almost never worked and most of the examples people cite (India's independence, anti-apartheid etc.) include a large amount of historical revisionism.

Yep, both india and south africa had a huge looming background of potential (and actual) violence.

Nelson Mandela was literally a marxist terrorist, yet is often held up as some kind of ideal of non violent protest.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#567

Post by glangdale »

This is an interesting story; however, much of it seems predicated on the idea that the police want things to be safer, which seems false. There seems like a open determination to make things worse - to be confrontational as possible and demonstrate their impunity. All the people making "you'd think they'd manage to not do police brutality at the rally about police brutality" jokes are missing the point - the overtness IS the message.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#568

Post by snovv_crash »

welterde wrote: post #553
Shacklz wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> will involve a firearm are much higher than they are in less-well-armed societies. Does anybody know if I'm right about that? Switzerland (disclaimer; I'm Swiss) has also lots of weapons around, but if the police are ever shooting someone it's usually big news with investigations on whether it was really necessary. From my laymen point of view, police training and holding them accountable to their actions is probab…

Isn't it quite difficult to get a carry permit for a gun in Switzerland though? Making it not that likely that a random citizen the police officer encounters will actually have a loaded gun.

There is mandatory military service for males, so you actually see a lot of guns being open-carried by people heading home for the weekend on public transport etc.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#569

Post by nolsoniente »

Joeri wrote: post #565
vertex-four wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This has happened, incrementally. Do you have statistics that show that? Are more cops charged and imprisoned after murdering unarmed people every year, or does the number of unarmed murdered people go down, at all? People who die mysteriously in custody?

“Fatal police shootings of unarmed people have significantly declined, experts say” https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/fatal-police-s... However, the overall trend in police killings is flat. https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/nationaltrends Interestingly: “White Police Officers Are Not More Likely To Shoot Minority Suspects” https://www.npr.org/2019/07/26/745731839/new-study-says-whit...

And you dont need to be black to get suffocated by police https://www.dallasnews.com/news/investigations/2019/07/31/yo...

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#570

Post by solstice »

lxmorj wrote: post #454
beloch wrote: post #78

We should expect police to us less use violence and improve their crowd management and deescalation skills. The increasing militarization of police is a trend that must be reversed. However, we should not neglect the other side of the equation either. This article is, in large part, about just that. The article points out that many protests in the U.S. went smoothly through the practice of police and protest organize…

It is flabbergasting to me that we expect self-policing from protestors, but not the literal fucking police.

I think it's normal, reasonable and beneficial. If I had a very strong grievance that lead me to protest, I'd be highly motivated to not let others detract from my message or tarnish it. Nut jobs and provocateurs make it harder for me to attain my goals and can in the worst delegitimise my cause entirely
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