De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer • Hacker News Board

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#411

Post by runarberg » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:31 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #269

silverreads wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

11,000 claims of abuse in the last 3 days just in seattle is low?

You can't retroactively justify a riot based on police conflicts with rioters. It violates causality.

I’m not so sure you can pin causality here. Anecdotally, the protests I’ve visited in the past have always been exactly as violent as the police initiates. A peaceful police usually means a peaceful protest in my experience. A violent police—on the other hand—can sometimes cause a violent protest, and even a riot.

Crowd control is a science. And you are sort of ignoring the science by claiming that rioters are the cause of the conflict.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#412

Post by km3r » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:32 AM UTC

tw000001 wrote: post #141

just_steve_h wrote: post #10

Folks - don't be obtuse. Police commanders know exactly what will happen when they escalate with tear gas and rubber bullets. Pro-police forces WANT mayhem. It makes people watching on TV afraid of the protests, and it changes the subject away from the widespread peaceful opposition to racist police violence.

I've been monitoring some 20 streams for 3 days straight and in almost every case the protests begin with hours of protestors within inches of police' faces screaming, belittling and dehumanizing the cops, with frequent disparaging references to homosexuality, gender, race, and physical stature. All the meanwhile the police are standing stoically in every single example. At what point is it appropriate to escalate fo…

I agree that it seems like in most cases the cops are escalating in a controlled and thought out manner. Yeah of course the cops are going to tear gas protesters when they are throwing rocks and launching fireworks (literal explosives!) at the cops. But there is also many examples of cops misbehaving, like the people who were shot with rubber bullets while on their own porch! I think the issue comes down to there being 600 different police academies and 1000s of police departments in the US each with different training and policies. Maybe standardization of these policies would help?

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#413

Post by somebrody » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:32 AM UTC

thephyber wrote: post #270

somebrody wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The relevant discussions are here Squirmy

I thought it was a decent effort to point out content in the most relevant place. The relevant site guideline is to assume that others are commenting in good faith.

I thought it was lame. I broke the guidelines. I assume bad faith from everything that person wrote. You should probably report me.

I also assume bad faith from you so you can add that to your tattling.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#414

Post by genuinebyte » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:32 AM UTC

bobmaxup wrote: post #409

Why not make universal laws that apply to anyone that can be proven to injure another human being with economic deterrents? For example, if you hit a man in the face, cause bruising, lets say that costs $1,000 across the board. $1,000 for any hematoma, $5000 or any broken bone. $25,000 for a GSW, $100,000 for a life-threatening injury, etc. To take it further, if you discharge a weapon at another human being, the fin…

The Rich would be allowed to level anyone they see fit with minimal financial loss.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#415

Post by komali2 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:33 AM UTC

lenkite wrote: post #352

komali2 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could we please not waste a second of thought on the relatively minor issue of broken store windows until we sort the issue of cops indiscriminately killing black people? If you care so much, how about petition your local police force to dump their tear gas at the range and stop firing on peaceful protesters, turning a lot of sitting people into a riot.

Relatively minor issue ? There are store owners defending their property who are being brutally beaten to near-death by "protestors". Residences containing children are being set on fire by "protestors". No, these are not 'minor' quibbles that should be skipped over.

Neither of the things you said happened.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#416

Post by mercer » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:34 AM UTC

vertex-four wrote: post #342

yters wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

would you prefer a country with no rule of law? there are plenty of those around to check out

You know as well as I do that there are alternatives to a contemporary legal system that are not a bunch of roving warlords. The current system is not the only system that can possibly work.

Surely you're aware that we are at the end of history, and the current system is the best we can hope for or aspire to!

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#417

Post by stcredzero » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:35 AM UTC

vertex-four wrote: post #403

stcredzero wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well shit it isn't, it results every year in people being murdered in cold blood, nobody being arrested for it despite the perpetrators being known After the George Floyd incident, everyone was in agreement that this should stop. What's happening with the violence and the vandalism is just muddying the waters. It's almost as if the purpose isn't to make things better, but to foment a race war to destabilize the USA.

> After the George Floyd incident, everyone was in agreement that this should stop. No, they really weren't - or at least not in any way that might lead to actionable results, like building systems that do not give cops the power to murder people without accountability. The same as all the other times the police have murdered people. It's not like this is a new thing that people are just waking up to.

No, they really weren't - or at least not in any way that might lead to actionable results

Can you substantiate that, or is it just your opinion? You can justify the imposition of your opinion on everyone? (Through violent intimidation?)

like building systems that do not give cops the power to murder people without accountability

This has happened, incrementally. Can you design a system, ground-up that will work as well as the current one? I suspect that's far more likely than iterating on the current one. That's also an opinion.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#418

Post by komali2 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:36 AM UTC

yters wrote: post #359

komali2 wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's getting off topic, but it's worth pointing out that all the examples you're about to drum up may not have rule of law, but they certainly have "law," in that they have someone holding a monopoly on violence and the willingness to use it to meet their ends. I think that's an important distinction to make between such a place, and a place of anarchy or a commune, which aren't necessarily places that don't have "ru…

what exactly is your counter proposal? the united communes of america? monopoly on violence exists because people are evil and violent without a lawful monopoly on violence you get much of what you see in the rest of the world anarchist want to destroy the current system flaws and all for a vacuum of justice

> what exactly is your counter proposal? the united communes of america?

That doesn't sound too bad to me.

> people are evil and violent

It seems that isn't the really the case, it seems only a small minority of people are, but unfortunately violence allows aggregation of power which allows more violence which allows...

> anarchist want to destroy the current system flaws and all for a vacuum of justice

Not aware of any anarchists that want whatever a "vacuum of justice" is.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#419

Post by noobermin » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:37 AM UTC

just_steve_h wrote: post #10

Folks - don't be obtuse. Police commanders know exactly what will happen when they escalate with tear gas and rubber bullets. Pro-police forces WANT mayhem. It makes people watching on TV afraid of the protests, and it changes the subject away from the widespread peaceful opposition to racist police violence.

It's also a tactic to maintain their funding levels in the midst of an economic slowdown.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#420

Post by komali2 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:39 AM UTC

kuzimoto wrote: post #354

komali2 wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Preventing others from interfering should count, no? So our most recent case is 1 murderer and 3 accessories to, at the very least.

> Preventing others from interfering should count, no? Sure, but that's not what you asked. I believe the other three will be charged and convicted. At least that what I hope will happen.

I admire your optimism. As evidence against it: the doctor that performed the autopsy claims there's no evidence that Floyd died of choking, instead blaming "possible narcotics" in his blood stream. No explanation for how the doc knew there were possibly narcotics in his blood stream without knowing exactly what those narcotics were.